A different take on the Twillight saga

[Zettaijin]

Yes, it does tend to pay more than ample lip service to typical post-modernist interpretations, but heck, give him props for taking a shot at this.

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/68/68twilight.php

[Nerit]

While I abhor Twilight for various reasons, I love Jungian interpretation and this was right up my alley. One should be familiar with the term "rape fantasy" even if it's not mentioned on the page, along with a female's animus.

So, thanks for the link.

[LadySoth]

This was interesting.

I didn't agree with a lot of the author's claims, but his point was well-argued and his quotes interesting and thought provoking. I'd have given him more credence if he'd backed up some of the personal assertions he made regarding women's personal views on issues of the rape fantasy. I simply don't take his word for something that heinous, and having some sort of "evidence" to prove his point would have gone further.

[Nerit]

Yup, I noticed that as well, LadySoth. At certain points I wondered "Well, how does he know? Has he experienced it as a man?" The problem is that we only make that judgment because we know he is a male author. If we didn't...would it still bother us?

Also, this in no way makes me feel better about the popularity of the series. Analogy: explaining the psychological motivations behind a reprehensible action won't make me think it's a good action .

[Jester of the FoS]

There's also this view:
http://www.sarahdarkmagic.com/content/g ... on-seen-dd

[Zettaijin]

For what it's worth, the author isn't breaking new grounds so much as taking an analysis grid and applying it to a piece of media that has been often cast aside and ridiculed as insipid and pointless by those who are not part of the intended audience. I mean, compared to say Slavoj Zizek, he's playing in fairly safe territory. Whether this a compliment or a critique is up to you to decide.

His best, and I would say most interesting point, is how he likens Twilight to a new wave of Harlequin novels. The themes and ideas are the same, but instead of pirates and dark strangers, we get vampires and werewolves. By making that comparison, he brings Twilight down to a much more approachable and dare I say understandable level. Yes, it's kitschy and juvenile, but it's not new and certainly won't last forever.

As for the validity of the points he makes based on his gender, trust me when I say that there are female authors who could have and probably already have reached the same conclusions. As I said, his ideas aren't new: using Lacan and sundry post-modernist references to deconstruct pieces of media is not a novel endeavour and members of both genders (and some transgenders as well) have been going at it for some time.

[LadySoth]

His best, and I would say most interesting point, is how he likens Twilight to a new wave of Harlequin novels. The themes and ideas are the same, but instead of pirates and dark strangers, we get vampires and werewolves. .

He also gets several details wrong here. His references seem outdated and stereotypical, even a minor detail, like mentioning Fabio as being on the cover of a romance novel-- is an outdated reference by about 15 years or so. Also, the issue of rape in Contemporary Romance novels, has become a quite thorny one-- authors, (especially Harlequin authors, who have to follow a strict code of what's allowed/vs. what's over the line sexually) its not seen as the romantic "ravishment" idea this author was discussing, and is actually seen as quite repulsive by many authors. In contemporary romance, there's quite a distinction between rape vs. sex with a willing partner. A common trope I've seen in my own reading is the hero who saves the heroine from rape, and she experiences a clean rapture in his arms, contrasted with the damaging effect of the rape scenario. Simply put, labeling rape as "ravishment" and presenting the woman as the willing victim is completely frowned upon in modern romance. Modern romantic heroines are usually gutsy and give men more a run for their money than ones from the 70s-90s did, and here the guys references and viewpoints are really outdated. He seems largely disconnected with the type of literature he's writing about.

Yup, I noticed that as well, LadySoth. At certain points I wondered "Well, how does he know? Has he experienced it as a man?" The problem is that we only make that judgment because we know he is a male author. If we didn't...would it still bother us?

That's a good point. But I think the personal judgements he made would still have put me off. Even if he were a woman, maybe especially if he were a woman, I'd find even more wrong with his viewpoint because who is some author (no matter what his/her gender) to speak for everyone/ all women everywhere? A huge problem with this author's style was his sweeping generalizations without any support and outdated references-- huge "no-nos" in academic writing, which he's obviously trying to write this piece as.

[Zettaijin]

Ravishment vs. romance is one of those issues that may never rest due to the slippery notion of consent, especially in light of certain modern sexual practices where notions of consent are apparently put aside by all parties involved, but in reality they are encased in various rituals and codes to hide the fact that consent is, and always has been, given at some point.

But therein lies the interesting point: people willingly "act" as if they haven't given consent when they have. The very existence of such scenarios suggest that deep down inside humans are filthy, ugly little creatures who dream of primitive domination and submission, fight and flight instincts expressed in modern terms but hidden deep under layers of codes, rituals and words.

We may hide ravishment under the carpet when people come to visit, but when the lights are out and the kids are put to bed, our primitive instincts kick in.

[LadySoth]

^Sure, but this author is talking bout romance novels, where publishing guidelines tend to strictly preclude that type of thing. That's completely different than real life-- which clearly isn't depicted in such a "fantasy"/fiction medium as romance novels. Interesting tie to Twilight however, maybe Bella's secretly into Edward precisely because he's so dominant, possessive and cruel? That she has an inner wish to be repressed, or subconsciously sees that as a good thing is an interesting idea, I think. She certainly doubts herself (not as much in the movies, but its there) in little things such as always thinking that she is clumsy, in thinking that she is not "good enough" for Edward (even though he's the blood sucking monster who will eventually kill her), even the fact that she welcomes her death at his hands-- I think Bella has a psychosis.

[Nerit]

Haha, you think? I know!

[Jester of the FoS]

I doubt the author read many romance novels, but probably instead read about romance novels, likely commentaries produced by academia. Which would likely be a few trends behind the curve in contemporary romance novels. There's also the full history of the genre to consider. When looking and comparing something to "romance novels" as a whole you do have to take a majority view and not simply compare to the recent batch, which might be a statistical anomaly in a century-old literary form.

[Ronia Sun]

Hmmm. Interesting article and interesting discussion. I have to admit that I refused to see anything past the first film--but I *have* actually read all the books. I think I would have loved them when I was eighteen. Having read them at the age of twenty-nine...ugh.

On the article author's remarks about rape fantasy: while I'm sure there are women out there who have 'em (just pick up historical bodice rippers written pre-1980. Most of them seem to be rape-fantasies, it's horrifying) I am not one and most of the other women of my acquaintance would be equally horrified at the idea. The murky issues, I think, come less from sexuality itself than from the fact that women are, 99% of the time, physically weaker than men. It's just a fact. Every woman is aware of it, and yes, it means that in many instances there is an element of threat in male-female interactions, however innocuous, that I think many men are not even aware of, but that women nearly always are. (I hope the preceding made sense. I'm sort of rambling, I realize.) I admit that I have rarely been in a situation where I have felt threatened, as a woman--but I am also six feet tall, and therefore at least on an equal stature with most men. I do agree with the writer that's it's a confusing area.

As to the books/films: I find them ridiculous and unhealthy in relationships, but I honestly did not get any rape fantasy vibes from the books, at least. (can't speak for the films, beyond the first one) I do think that some folks read entirely too much into the fact that the author is Mormon. I'm Mormon myself, but did not actually see a great deal of 'imposed-beliefs' on the characters (which is one of Stephanie Meyer's few saving graces as a writer. Too many Christian/whatever writers--whatever their denomination--forcibly impose their views on characters that probably wouldn't share them). In the books, at least, the vampire is the one resisting a pre-marital relationship, partly because he's got Issues about the fact that he could hurt her, but also because he was born and grew to (supposed) adulthood in an era where premarital sex was generally frowned upon. (And whatever the romance novels would like us to believe, I do not think all men automatically had sex as soon as they could. Men have just as many problems/issues/pressures as women do, I think, and I don't buy that men are "animals" incapable of controlling themselves any more than women.)

It's certainly an interesting topic of debate, whatever a person's beliefs. Doesn't change the fact that as a grown woman I loathe the Twilight saga for its whiny, immature characters and pathetic "I must have a boyfriend/girlfriend to be considered a complete person" outlook. That view is not limited to teenagers or Mormons, sadly. I think it's part of the human condition...

[HuManBing]

One should be familiar with the term "rape fantasy" even if it's not mentioned on the page, along with a female's animus.

Isn't that illegal in 13 states including Alabama?

</Couldn'tResist>