What Darklords Should Go?

[brilliantlight]

I just thought of another, Inza. She is a very poor replacement for Soth IMO. There is no real reason given for her being evil, it is even strongly hinted she was born evil with no explaination why. Was Magda tricked into sleeping with the Genteleman Claller or something? It certainly doesn't say.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

I just thought of another, Inza. She is a very poor replacement for Soth IMO. There is no real reason given for her being evil, it is even strongly hinted she was born evil with no explaination why. Was Magda tricked into sleeping with the Genteleman Claller or something? It certainly doesn't say.

So who would you suggest?

[HuManBing]

...Soth?

[brilliantlight]

...Soth?

Agreed, they never should have gotten rid of him. If you feel that you can't do that make up a Tepest inquisitor who is way too fanatical about wiping out the fey.

[ewancummins]

Regarding Gwydion:

That's a perfect example, Roti, thank you. It is also a great example of how a domain doesn't NEED a darklord to be great. The Shadow Rift works fine without the giant Shadow Demon romping all over the place, and there are plenty of major NPCs to keep it rolling along. And, in a very technical sense, the DP didn't relaly create Arak/Shadow Rift, the fey did when they followed the Erlking into the gate. Being the 3rd Core domain to form, it can act as a clue to how the DP were operating at the time, possibly not at their full strength or power. Again, that's another thread.

Gwydion DOES have a major flaw as a darklord, however, and it is one he shares with beings like Arijani, Eason (well half of him) and a few others already mentioned: They are beings of pure evil, but not beings that really go against their nature. And there is no room for redemption. The HUMAN darklords are more interesting because the path of their ruin is so real. Creatures that just START bad are poor darklord choices, but i see the value of having a boogey-man type for certain situations.

I tend to agree. Of the darklords who began life as evil monsters, only a few appeal to me [Harkon Lukas is a favorite of mine].

[lostboy]

On of the best thngs that happened in the Soth end story IMHO was the Bloody Cobbler. That guy was an awesome concept. if I ever use Sithicus in a cmapign he'll be the inspiration for the DL rather than Inza or the annoying werebadger thing.

[High Priest Mikhal]

On Inza, IMO she has potential but the devs either ran out of time or were too afraid of offending someone. As is she comes off as a cartoonish villain and not terribly Gothic. Other than the mass murder of her tribe she has no truly heinous crimes to her name. At least Soth has a dramatic past and many of his crimes are passionate. In homebrew she could be made a lot more interesting. But canon Inza is as flat and tasteless as the paper she's printed on.

[Manofevil]

Oh I dunno about that. I chewed that paper for a little while and it was pretty tasty to me. 'Course I spilled my root beer on it first.

[Nevermorrow]

Oh I dunno about that. I chewed that paper for a little while and it was pretty tasty to me. 'Course I spilled my root beer on it first.

I always thought it obvious, but perhaps it's the recovering Catholic in me... IMC Ivan and Ivana are sort of Ravenloft versions of Caesar and Lucretia Borgia, from the days of the really, really naughty popes in the Dark Vatican Days. I mean, yeah, they're brother and sister (or kissing cousins), and yeah, he has tie me up tie me down, buy me chocolates and slap me simple fantasies, and she's ready with the Godiva and a cat 'o nines, but the potential for misery the two of them generate is amazing, and the Powers help anybody who gets in the way! If you don't know the sheet-twisting history of the Dark Popes, just think Cruel Intentions with Sarah Michelle Gellar and Ryan Phillipe's characters running a domain. My players have come to loathe time in Borca, because they know the indulgences they end up paying will be waaaay more than any actual indulgences they might um, *indulge* in. So I'm quite fond of Caesar. I mean Ivan.

I really like your take on Ivan and Ivana. I never thought of having part of Ivan's problem being that he's a bad sub topping from the bottom.

I must be the only one who doesn't like Sodo since no one else has brought him up. But frankly, I thought Sodo's curse was actually a little bit silly. Sure, you can work it up so that it's not. I never really got into the doppelganger either. The baldandar of Mystara (I'm too tired to google a link for you) was more interesting to me. "Baldandar" has a bit of an exotic ring to it though, so they may not be the best fit for Zherisia.

Speaking of Zherisia, I never lost the rest of the original domain during the GC like in the canon rules. I'd already spent a little time developing it. Though I explicitly didn't have Sodo being the DL I never really named a new DL. Zherisia was the land of human evil in IMC. I guess it came from reading about how bad it was in Whitechapel during the Ripper murders, but I made sure that one could not miss it in Paridon. I hadn't gotten around to fully fleshing out Zherisia because my players wound up not going there. One of the things I remember deciding was that in Zherisian history, their equivalent to Rome wasn't as successful at conquering them. Hence, the druids survived quite a bit longer, long enough to become too powerful and intolerably corrupt. Rather than a positive force, they became like a parasite, destabilizing the tribes as they were trying to build a real civilization. Eventually the Zherisians overthrew the druids. This is how Zherisia became a religion-less land. Some superstitious Zherisians believe that the sacrifices of the druids (a repulsive and barbaric idea now) still go on. Tales speak of ghostly reenactments of the ancient sacrifices... with the witness occasionally being drawn into the action (but often just watching). I also think some extra material for the countryside could be based around the history of Chillingham Castle.

I'm also toying with the idea of turning Zherisia into Scotland, with Paridon being based on Edinburgh. Edinburgh has such a dark history that it seems like an oversight to not have something like it in RL. And there are too many English domains in RL.

On the other hand, I've never liked any of the various backstories of Hiregaard and Malken. Maybe I'll replace Hiregaard with a different DL and move Jekyll and Hyde back to Victorian England where they belong. Or maybe I'll eliminate Ghastria and move East Riding to Zherisia and rename Stezen to Stephen. Hasn't anyone else noticed the irony of several DLs being derived from villains in Victorian literature (Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, Dorian Gray, Jekyll and Hyde), but the domain based on Victorian England not having any of them for its DL? Instead, what does it get? Doppelgangers. Something is just not right with that.

[lordsathien]

Yes, that's much like what I had in mind. It is important to have human tribes there for me, human tribes that mesh with the jungle as much as the animals. As far as I rememer, the original writing doesn't have any of that, does it?

Not since King Crocodile ate all the hairless apes, at least.

One interesting option, that would be true to African folklore as well as the original spirit of the domain, might be to allow the sentient animals to take on human forms for purposes of interaction with humans. That would emulate plenty of genuine African stories about animal-people -- Anansi the Spider is the quickest to spring to mind -- and it would neatly fix the problem of the domain's dearth of PC/NPC interaction. Imagine an encounter between PC explorers and a "native woman" who's actually a leopardess, scouting out their camp to see who'd be most easily killed for food, or an ambush by brutish, whooping "primitives" who revert to their hyena forms when slain!

Perhaps, if the kill-an-animal-to-become-sentient link is one that you guys like, then the ability to become human could be restricted to Awakened beasts that have killed, or at least tasted the blood of, real humanoids? That would give the sentient animals a legitimate motive to stalk PCs, if a human guise is something they covet. Given that King Crocodile knows that a hairless ape is one of the things that might kill him, perhaps being able to assume that shape at will is considered a last-ditch defense against his hunger, startling Croc enough that he'll miss his strike and give his prey a chance to escape. For that matter, ambitious Awakened animals might believe that they could kill (and supplant) the King, provided they do so in human form.

An excelent idea that certainly would make the domain more interesting.

I recently acquired some supplements to a setting called Nyambe: African Adventures. In one of the books is a template called Animal Shapechanger. Granted the material is 3.0, but I'd be glad to share the info with you in a PM.

[brilliantlight]

Not since King Crocodile ate all the hairless apes, at least.

One interesting option, that would be true to African folklore as well as the original spirit of the domain, might be to allow the sentient animals to take on human forms for purposes of interaction with humans. That would emulate plenty of genuine African stories about animal-people -- Anansi the Spider is the quickest to spring to mind -- and it would neatly fix the problem of the domain's dearth of PC/NPC interaction. Imagine an encounter between PC explorers and a "native woman" who's actually a leopardess, scouting out their camp to see who'd be most easily killed for food, or an ambush by brutish, whooping "primitives" who revert to their hyena forms when slain!

Perhaps, if the kill-an-animal-to-become-sentient link is one that you guys like, then the ability to become human could be restricted to Awakened beasts that have killed, or at least tasted the blood of, real humanoids? That would give the sentient animals a legitimate motive to stalk PCs, if a human guise is something they covet. Given that King Crocodile knows that a hairless ape is one of the things that might kill him, perhaps being able to assume that shape at will is considered a last-ditch defense against his hunger, startling Croc enough that he'll miss his strike and give his prey a chance to escape. For that matter, ambitious Awakened animals might believe that they could kill (and supplant) the King, provided they do so in human form.

An excelent idea that certainly would make the domain more interesting.

I recently acquired some supplements to a setting called Nyambe: African Adventures. In one of the books is a template called Animal Shapechanger. Granted the material is 3.0, but I'd be glad to share the info with you in a PM.

Cool

[brilliantlight]

Oh I dunno about that. I chewed that paper for a little while and it was pretty tasty to me. 'Course I spilled my root beer on it first.

I always thought it obvious, but perhaps it's the recovering Catholic in me... IMC Ivan and Ivana are sort of Ravenloft versions of Caesar and Lucretia Borgia, from the days of the really, really naughty popes in the Dark Vatican Days. I mean, yeah, they're brother and sister (or kissing cousins), and yeah, he has tie me up tie me down, buy me chocolates and slap me simple fantasies, and she's ready with the Godiva and a cat 'o nines, but the potential for misery the two of them generate is amazing, and the Powers help anybody who gets in the way! If you don't know the sheet-twisting history of the Dark Popes, just think Cruel Intentions with Sarah Michelle Gellar and Ryan Phillipe's characters running a domain. My players have come to loathe time in Borca, because they know the indulgences they end up paying will be waaaay more than any actual indulgences they might um, *indulge* in. So I'm quite fond of Caesar. I mean Ivan.

I really like your take on Ivan and Ivana. I never thought of having part of Ivan's problem being that he's a bad sub topping from the bottom.

I must be the only one who doesn't like Sodo since no one else has brought him up. But frankly, I thought Sodo's curse was actually a little bit silly. Sure, you can work it up so that it's not. I never really got into the doppelganger either. The baldandar of Mystara (I'm too tired to google a link for you) was more interesting to me. "Baldandar" has a bit of an exotic ring to it though, so they may not be the best fit for Zherisia.

Speaking of Zherisia, I never lost the rest of the original domain during the GC like in the canon rules. I'd already spent a little time developing it. Though I explicitly didn't have Sodo being the DL I never really named a new DL. Zherisia was the land of human evil in IMC. I guess it came from reading about how bad it was in Whitechapel during the Ripper murders, but I made sure that one could not miss it in Paridon. I hadn't gotten around to fully fleshing out Zherisia because my players wound up not going there. One of the things I remember deciding was that in Zherisian history, their equivalent to Rome wasn't as successful at conquering them. Hence, the druids survived quite a bit longer, long enough to become too powerful and intolerably corrupt. Rather than a positive force, they became like a parasite, destabilizing the tribes as they were trying to build a real civilization. Eventually the Zherisians overthrew the druids. This is how Zherisia became a religion-less land. Some superstitious Zherisians believe that the sacrifices of the druids (a repulsive and barbaric idea now) still go on. Tales speak of ghostly reenactments of the ancient sacrifices... with the witness occasionally being drawn into the action (but often just watching). I also think some extra material for the countryside could be based around the history of Chillingham Castle.

I'm also toying with the idea of turning Zherisia into Scotland, with Paridon being based on Edinburgh. Edinburgh has such a dark history that it seems like an oversight to not have something like it in RL. And there are too many English domains in RL.

On the other hand, I've never liked any of the various backstories of Hiregaard and Malken. Maybe I'll replace Hiregaard with a different DL and move Jekyll and Hyde back to Victorian England where they belong. Or maybe I'll eliminate Ghastria and move East Riding to Zherisia and rename Stezen to Stephen. Hasn't anyone else noticed the irony of several DLs being derived from villains in Victorian literature (Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, Dorian Gray, Jekyll and Hyde), but the domain based on Victorian England not having any of them for its DL? Instead, what does it get? Doppelgangers. Something is just not right with that.

Dracula and Frankenstien take place in Transylvania and Geneva so I think they are right where they should be. I agree with you about Dorian Grey and Jekyll and Hyde as they take place in England IIRC. So Strahd and Adam should stay where they are and Malkin and D'Parno moved to a Cul9 Pseudo- English domains.

[Garudos Celestar]

Dracula and Frankenstien take place in Transylvania and Geneva so I think they are right where they should be. I agree with you about Dorian Grey and Jekyll and Hyde as they take place in England IIRC. So Strahd and Adam should stay where they are and Malkin and D'Parno moved to a Cul9 Pseudo- English domains.

Malken has, of course, always had the issue of conflicting histories (one of which does follow the Jekyll and Hyde theme, and that particular path has been emphasized, particularly with the unfortunate modernization of Nova Vaasa from its original medieval/high fantasy feel). However, I've always considered the important point being that he's the one darklord who first-and-foremost represents the family curse. Tristen Hiregaard's story isn't about the duality of man; it's about the monsters of the past remaining to haunt the family in the present. Sasha's (is it Sasha? I think it's Sasha...) going to be dealing with it and on down the line. It's about the curse's host in the current generation living in fear of the shadow behind his shoulder. That shadow is Malken, and the irony of his darklord curse is the inversion: the original curse gets his own curse (i.e. to always be attached to someone fundamentally opposed to his desires and methods). It's not Jekyll and Hyde; it's the family skeleton in the closet.

[Nevermorrow]

Malken has, of course, always had the issue of conflicting histories (one of which does follow the Jekyll and Hyde theme, and that particular path has been emphasized, particularly with the unfortunate modernization of Nova Vaasa from its original medieval/high fantasy feel). However, I've always considered the important point being that he's the one darklord who first-and-foremost represents the family curse. Tristen Hiregaard's story isn't about the duality of man; it's about the monsters of the past remaining to haunt the family in the present. Sasha's (is it Sasha? I think it's Sasha...) going to be dealing with it and on down the line. It's about the curse's host in the current generation living in fear of the shadow behind his shoulder. That shadow is Malken, and the irony of his darklord curse is the inversion: the original curse gets his own curse (i.e. to always be attached to someone fundamentally opposed to his desires and methods). It's not Jekyll and Hyde; it's the family skeleton in the closet.

Which makes for a great storyline but not a darklord. Malken is just that family curse given a mind. Malken never had any choice other than to be anything but what he is. Hiregaard didn't do anything to deserve his fate. Darklords do evil to earn their domains and could have chosen to not do their terrible deeds -- though many would deny that they could have taken a different path than they did -- but they chose evil over good. Malken never had the capacity to choose otherwise. Therefore, his story needs to be tweaked (and many have already tried!) or Nova Vaasa needs a different darklord.

For my part, I'm working on that, another darklord for Nova Vaasa IMC. I think you're right about the family curse/skeleton in the closet angle, but I still think that it doesn't qualify either Hiregaard or Malken for darklordship. Could easily be the basis for an awesome adventure though.

[InVinoVeritas]

We'll have to first think about what the theme of Nova Vaasa is, first. Its mutable history has kept it bare of a consistent theme.

Hey, maybe that's the idea. The darklord's curse is having no past--an inability to remember what has come before, but understanding that the past did lead to the present state. When the borders close, people forget about crossing. That's why the borders have never closed--they occasionally have, but no one ever thought to leave when they did.