Talk:Dwarven Vampire
Dwarven Vampire is a dwarf who has returned from death via the Dwarven Vampire strain of vampirism. This strain only affects dwarves, hence all Dwarven Vampires are both Dwarfs and Vampires, but not all Vampires who are Dwarfs are affected by this strain. It is possible for a Dwarf to contract another strain of vampirism, including the basic version. To avoid this confusion, creatures affected by this strain are also called hulzurdan or uppyr.
I have looked at this several times and consulted the referenced sources and can't make heads or tails out of it. All I can say with certainty is that Mangrum floated the name hulzurdan in his monster lore thread in the forum as part of a general attempt to break away from the 2e habit of just sticking undead in front of things rather than instead creating a bit of originality. As far as I can see the 4e version follows the 3.5e version, so I am even more lost. And unless I am missing something "Dwarven Vampires are both Dwarfs and Vampires" is a tantology and I do not see what two strains exist. Please help me see the light.Cure 07:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the confusion, let's see if we can find a way to word it that makes more sense. (though it is a confusing topic to begin with). Yes, Mangrum mentioned the name hulzurdan (along with wrethfetin, albesadow, nonaris, and goatsucker) in the monster lore thread, as well as in the "Teeny Tiny Tales" thread. Those names are also in the table of contents for the "Kargatane's Dream Ravenloft Core books", which Mangrum posted (I think on gleemax) and we have archived here. I'm not sure which of those three sources came first, but the Teeny Tiny Tales were supposed to be for Mangrum's personal revised Denizens of Dread, which I assume is part of the "dream core books".
- Jester, however, was unaware of those vampire strain names or had forgotten them when he wrote the FoS's unofficial 4e Ravenloft conversion, so he made up his own. (Uppyr, Dearg due, and craenag-follei). To the best of my knowledge, neither Jester's names nor Mangrum's have shown up anywhere more official, so I labelled them as Potential-canon and Netbook-canon, respectively.
- I'm not sure where you are seeing two strains. This quote: "All Dwarven Vampires are both Dwarfs and Vampires," is obvious, yes. But it is only meant as a contrast to the following: "but not all Vampires who are Dwarfs are affected by this strain." In other words: All dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs. The gist of what I'm saying is: Just because you are a dwarf, in Ravenloft, and you become a vampire, it doesn't mean you are automatically a Dwarven Vampire (or hulzurdan if you prefer, to make it clearer). By the rules, it's possible to be a dwarf Vrykrolaka, or an elf Chiang-shi, or a halfling nosferatu, or a gnome regular-old-vampire-template-vampire. You are only a hulzurdan if you contract the (poorly named) "Dwarven Vampire strain" of vampirism.
- Does it make more sense now? How might I reword it to avoid this confusion without promoting hulzurdan or uppyr to officialness? I've made a stab at it. Any better? -- Gonzoron 16:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Part of the problem was my own, that I had persuaded myself that a human basic vampire or a human nosteratu could not create a dwarven spawn or dwarven full-fledge vampire in its own image.
That said, would this be clearer?
- All humanoids are susceptible to different strains of vampirism that include that of the basic monster manual vampire, that of the Nosferatu, that of the vrykrolaka, and that of the Chiang-shi. There are also additional strains of vampirism that each target - and cannot be spread outside of - a specific race. In the case of dwarves this race specific vampirism results in a creature that is called a hulzurdan or, alternatively, a uppyr.
OK, I took what you've got there and mixed it up a bit with what I had. What do you think of it now? -- Gonzoron 22:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Excellent. And it can used as a model for the other racial strains. I cleaned up a handful of aesethic things, but altered only one word (dwarfs to dwarves which is correct, or are both correct?).Cure 22:55, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
A further, potentially bothersome thought. The small version of the
Speculation warning that you created is very, very helpful and looks good when used admidst a paragraph of canon. Equivalents for potential canon and net-book' would be great. As aesthetically, the warnings on the Dwarven Vampire page stick out like sore thumbs in consequence of what they do to the interline spacing.Cure 23:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Should this be turned into a catagory within Category:Vampire strain? Cure 07:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
