Mistfinder / Pathfinder: Replacing a Paladin's Detect Evil.

[Matney X]

So, in my group we have a paladin -- not just any paladin, but a paladin played by an admitted minmaxer who prefers combat to roleplaying and has spent the last 3 gaming sessions bitching that he doesn't have full plate (he's second level, and they're on Markovia). He's incredibly vocal that Mistfinder v1 straight up neuters the Paladin by swapping Detect Evil with Detect Chaos, and wants it swapped with Protection from Evil.

I feel like that's just too powerful a switch. Yes, they're both first level Paladin spells, but one gives the character information, while the other just makes him a bigger beast in combat.

So, I've read the 3rd edition change, Mistfinder, the Pathfinder Ravenloft Players Handbook that someone on this forum made, and the solution I've suggested is using everything: Detect Chaos, Detect Innocents and Outsiders, Detect Undead (intelligent undead get a save at 10+1+CHA bonus), AND automatically detecting if an area is Consecrated/Desecrated.

He's still upset that all of that isn't nearly as useful as Detect Evil, because none of the detections are good in virtually every situation.

I'm probably going to just tell him to suck it up and accept that I'm already giving him considerably more than he should be getting, but I wanted to get more opinions on the matter.

[starfalconkd]

Step 1. Tell him you fixed it and he can now detect evil. He now has the ability to detect strong emotions.
Step 2. Watch the slaughter and roll his powers checks secretly.
Step 3. When he fails enough checks, take his character away and tell him to grow up.

But seriously, don't give him anything and definitely take away all those detection abilities. It is what it is and if he has a problem he shouldn't play a paladin in Ravenloft.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I agree you've given him too much. Detect Chaos is the standard replacement for Detect Evil in Ravenloft. It's not just Mistfinder, it's in every version of the setting in 3.5, 3.0, and 2nd edition.

If he thinks the paladin is unfairly nerfed, let him play something else.

You can't detect evil in Ravenloft. Period. That's the rules the dark masters of the place impose, and that's the concession the game needs to make in order for Gothic horror adventures to work. A little gray area for the "bad" guys to live in, and a little mystery over who the bad guy is. It makes sense out of game, the game makes an in-game justification for it. People playing Paladins in Ravenloft have lived with it since 1991. He's not so special that he needs special over the top compensation.

[Jester of the FoS]

So, in my group we have a paladin -- not just any paladin, but a paladin played by an admitted minmaxer who prefers combat to roleplaying and has spent the last 3 gaming sessions bitching that he doesn't have full plate (he's second level, and they're on Markovia).

Time for a heat wave and penalties for wearing heavy armour.

He's incredibly vocal that Mistfinder v1 straight up neuters the Paladin by swapping Detect Evil with Detect Chaos, and wants it swapped with Protection from Evil.

A 10 min/ level divination spell swapped for a 1 min/ level abjuration with combat benefits. No, that's *huge*.
Detect Chaos is fairly equivalent, except when fighting evil creatures above 5HD. Neither spell detects low-level threats and evil NPCs (read the spell). It is less advantageous when investigating undead and outsiders, but that's the point of removing it. But even if kept in, you need to spend three rounds focusing intently to narrow down the source of the evil.

I feel like that's just too powerful a switch. Yes, they're both first level Paladin spells, but one gives the character information, while the other just makes him a bigger beast in combat.

Agreed.
But if he wants it you can consider it but throw in a limit. Such as instead if being at will, he can cast protection from evil it as a move action once per day, with a CL equal to half his paladin level (min 1). And increase the frequency every few leaves. Twice at 4th, three at 8th, etc.

So, I've read the 3rd edition change, Mistfinder, the Pathfinder Ravenloft Players Handbook that someone on this forum made, and the solution I've suggested is using everything: Detect Chaos, Detect Innocents and Outsiders, Detect Undead (intelligent undead get a save at 10+1+CHA bonus), AND automatically detecting if an area is Consecrated/Desecrated.

I'm the one who wrote the later, which would also detect sinkholes of evil and the like. Making a note of it and making it useful is the best way of making it less of a neutering.
I opted not for outsiders as detecting those runs into the same problems as detecting undead: it halts investigation and derails story. The pally just knows and attacks.

He's still upset that all of that isn't nearly as useful as Detect Evil, because none of the detections are good in virtually every situation.

I'm probably going to just tell him to suck it up and accept that I'm already giving him considerably more than he should be getting, but I wanted to get more opinions on the matter.

First, I'd have him read and re-read the full text of detect evil. You shoud as well. Make sure he know how it's supposed to work.
Again, he has to spend a move action per individual to detect evil, and they have to be within 60 ft. So if he just stops and does nothing he can scan if two people are evil.

Then I'd talk with him. Seriously. Ask him what he wants from detect evil and what he wants in exchange. Why he thinks the changes are a nerf. And listen. Really listen. Don't think of a reply, just ask for clarifications and make sure you get his point.
Then look back at the last three sessions and think about how they might have been different if he had detect evil. Ask him how things would have changed.

[A G Thing]

Sorry but he sounds a little spoiled... This is not Eberron or Forgotten Realms... He really needs to explore if this is the right game for him.

Still if you want to foster that his power is not going to give him success alone then I suggest having someone show him. Perhaps an NPC that can use Detect Chaos to figure out something easier than he does because of roleplay and smart use but in a situation where spamming the other abilities actually hinders the investigation. Begin throwing red herrings that lead him to reveal how un-Paladinly (if that is a word...) his grasping for power makes him as he accuses others or sows discord by revealing evil but more subdued types such as child pickpockets or even the town headsman who is only following the letter of the law. Perhaps some person of great importance they thought was nice and may be doing good but for the wrong reasons but still revealing them makes them unpopular or causes trouble.

Show him that having these abilities and using them to discover the evil versus having it revealed instantly is a blessing and not a curse. For example say a werewolf is attacking villagers in a town that is in conflict with a group or faction in another domain or such. To prevent all out war and stop the attacks on the guards and townspeople you call in the players. But after tracking the werewolf down and revealing them to the paranoid town it is discovered that while he is evil as such he is trying to repent. He may be only defending other persecuted refugees from the other land. If he goes on to slaughter the beast only to find that it had been sheltering orphans, women and children none of which are evil it may shock him. If he begins to justify it then perhaps he is slowly slipping into madness and then show him the result of his good deed. The intolerant villagers who still also detect as good soon drag those now revealed refugees out to meet punishment for their crimes and then as mobs are prone to do administer such harsh justice. All the while have them detect as good and make each of them have valid points as neither side trusts the other for very good reasons.

Also just because the gods give power but are not out in the open does not mean they will give it no matter what. A paladin does not simply dismiss his gods gifts as unfitting. If he is native then he does not know what he is missing. If an outlander it should shake him but for him to claim it unfair is to basically admit his faith is not true in the difficult situation. If he was born without sight he might perhaps envy sighted men but if he was the only sighted man in the valley of the blind would he pine that his eyes could not see well enough. Compared to whom? He is not being punished. He just sees the grass as greener on the other side. Make him see the reason for why this fits and how it works for him and maybe he will learn to like the grass he is on for it is still his without compromise and he can make it better or worse on his own. The other grass is also ruled by the Dark Powers so maybe have it become a goal to somehow defy them to find an alternate way to detect evil and thus get on their grass. Maybe he will walk himself into damnation without every seeing what is wrong until the end and if you make it interesting perhaps you both might enjoy it.

And if he still does not accept it then keep throwing him to the wolves. You cannot unbalance the game for all the others just to sate his lust for power. Tell him in no uncertain terms that if he cannot accept this then perhaps he should play a different class. He might not be able to accept this but if it is just power then then all the classes have to deal with some nerfing as the Dark Powers enforce such. This is not a typical game of simple good vs evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder and you can do bad things no matter how good you think you are. Labels are dangerous. He is challenging evil on its home turf and doing it more openly then others. If he cannot accept the challenge then maybe he should simply not be a paladin for they don't take the easy way. They cannot afford to.

Hope some of this helps!

[Zilfer]

I generally agree with those around the board here, but also keep in mind the actual spell itself. It's not an auto i know he's evil. Hell a lot of characters have to be like lvl 5+ to even get the "vague" sense of evil. It's harder than most seem to think with that.

[High Priest Mikhal]

If he's not into role-playing, why is he playing an RPG to begin with? Half the fun is in RP. And I agree with everyone else. He can put up with it or leave. That's the ultimatum I'd present (and have, admittedly; you get a real measure for a person's maturity by what they do after).

[Ryan Naylor]

I personally think a discussion away from the roleplaying table rather than an ultimatum is the best way to go. If you can't discuss it like adults though...

Ultimately, it comes down to:

Will the person change if you talk about the problems with their behaviour?
How much do you value roleplaying with the person?
How much do you value your relationship with them?

[High Priest Mikhal]

I personally think a discussion away from the roleplaying table rather than an ultimatum is the best way to go. If you can't discuss it like adults though...

From everything the OP gave this guy, who still isn't happy, I very much doubt the player even knows how to act like an adult, even (or especially) if they are an adult.

[Matney X]

You guys have given me a lot to think about, thank you.

I agree, though, that this probably isn't the game for him -- if we were a traditional gaming group, I'd worry more about asking him to leave, but seeing as our dynamic is friends first, game second, he'll just have to suck it up and be unhappy. He did make us sit through a 4-hour "cut scene," not too long ago, when he was running his umpteenth attempt at WH40K goes High Fantasy, so at least he actually gets to do something.

[Zilfer]

You guys have given me a lot to think about, thank you.

I agree, though, that this probably isn't the game for him -- if we were a traditional gaming group, I'd worry more about asking him to leave, but seeing as our dynamic is friends first, game second, he'll just have to suck it up and be unhappy. He did make us sit through a 4-hour "cut scene," not too long ago, when he was running his umpteenth attempt at WH40K goes High Fantasy, so at least he actually gets to do something.

whoa whoa whoa... how the hell do you do a four hour "cutscene". O.o'

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

got to be an exaggeration, right? right???

[A G Thing]

If it is really that long at least tell me it was interactive?!?!?! You did things or spoke or such right?

[Matney X]

If it is really that long at least tell me it was interactive?!?!?! You did things or spoke or such right?

No exaggeration... he just kept talking, explaining this epic battle that was happening just outside our area of influence. I did my thing and fell asleep -- two other players did their thing and got drunk -- and his brother constantly tried to speak up and do things. I think the game went two more sessions that were "monster of the week" before someone else forcibly took over.

We've been playing with the same group for over a decade, and sometimes all the regular GMs get burnt out and someone else steps in to relieve us. That was one of those times.

[Zilfer]

lol sounds like he didn't want to DM either or DAMN he couldn't get the hint to move on from that cutscene. xD