How Gothic is your Ravenloft?

[ewancummins]

How often do you use gothic tropes?
I use them a lot, but I mix and match with gritty fantasy, detective stories, and other influences. Hauntings, innocent maidens in danger, family secrets, moral corruption manifesting as physical signs, dreamlike scenes, etc. have all been major parts of my ongoing campaign here on FoS.
How important is the cosmic struggle of Good versus Evil in your campaigns?
It’s central to my games. The conflict takes place within characters’ hearts and souls as well as in the physical realm. One PC’s crimes led him far down the road of corruption, and he became a darklord. The group has known betrayal as well as heroic sacrifice. The heroes have used questionable, even evil methods, only to pull back when they ‘stared into the abyss.’ I try to use villains, and not just monsters.

Do your PCs or NPCs ever resemble gothic archetypes?
My NPCs often do, yes. Evangeline Sancerre was an ingénue, for example.

I have some ideas for an even more Gothic campaign, inspired by JMatyr's House of Pancrazio and by Downtown Abbey (which is not at all a Gothic, but still has certian elements I might adapt).

[Zilfer]

Not being Very intametly familiar with Gothic works so I really can't judge myself very well. I THINK i do well for starting off. xD Just started a plot with a Family Curse so

The next question confuses me, the struggle between good and evil is important in all my campaigns regardless of whether it is ravenloft or not.

[ewancummins]

Plenty of campaigns don't have much to do with a struggle of good vs. evil in any deep sense. The PCs just roamed around killing monsters and taking their stuff, or got up to all sorts of other mischief trying to get rich and famous.

I like that you started with a family curse. That's always a good one. Is your campaign run tabletop? I'd love to read about it.

Out of curiosity, If you aren't familar with gothics, what was it that drew you to Ravenloft? I6?

[MichaelTumey]

I always feel a little intrusive, when I respond to threads like this, because my setting is Kaidan, not Ravenloft - but it's my love for Ravenloft and it's concepts (as well as my heritage), that I created Kaidan in the first place.

Kaidan is very gothic influenced.

The Virginal Maiden - only as examples here and there, not an indemic feature of the Kaidan setting. In the second adventure of The Curse of the Golden Spear trilogy of adventures features, the daughter of the merchant, whom the PCs have come to deliver a gift intended to free her from captivity, initially at least, conforms to the virginal maiden trope. She's beautiful, innocent, weak, delicate, the goal for the mission in the first place. But, of course, it's Kaidan so she's cursed. She's dead, a corporeal ghost, her soul is trapped in the reincarnation cycle, and further trapped in the condition of ghostdom. A secondary goal is set in the adventure to help her escape that fate. Following a Japanese trope, many (most) ghosts are vengeful women, many appear as beautiful 'virginal maids' in their pleasing forms.

Older Foolish Woman - again, only something here and there, not a major trope of the setting. The evil protagonist in the first tale of terror, Paths of Destruction in #30 Haunts for Kaidan is initially jealous of her husbands admirations and aid for their hired servant girl (though it is completely platonic), leads to her intrigue in trying to descredit the girl in her husband's eyes, leads to her murdering the girl - which inadvertantly opens a portal to Jigoku (the oni hell) and creates an oni touched ghost. All the evil woman's involvements turn to darkest acts, eventually leading to her suicide and subsequent ghostly curse - she is very much the older foolish woman trope.

The Hero, and especially being the outsider, a visitor who was not born in Kaidan, the PCs of the The Curse of the Golden Spear in some ways are prebuilt to be flawed Byronic Heroes. Using a list of plothooks and/or the provided pregenerated characters, they are on the first steps of Byronic hero-dom. The setting being controlled by ancient lineage, not merit, heavy taxation, ruthless samurai enforcing the many laws, of a bureaucratically heavy, empirical social class divisions and over-arching control by a military dictator, the Shogun, and his provincial militant administrators, the Daimyo will no doubt counter the philosophies and perceptions by the PCs who come from a typical western European analog origin.

The Tyrant is represented by multiple individuals. The devious and diabolical, Lord Hachiwara, Daimyo of Oniba Province is the primary protagonist in The Curse of the Golden Spear. He is the local representative of both the imperial court of Kaidan, and the militant Shogunate; both the emperor and shogun represent greater tyrants in the background of the adventures.

The Clergy (expanding that to religion) - where the Catholic church and it's weak and evil clerical villians belong to western gothic fiction, Kaidan is not Europe, it's a reflection of feudal Japan, so it's not the clergy so much as the church itself. Kaidan works with it's own twisted version of reincarnation within the confines of the Buddhist hells - the Wheel of Life. There are two co-existing practiced religions in Kaidan, with many heretical and ancient primal faiths of much lesser influence across the empire.

Zaoism (a conjunction of Zen and Tao) is the state religion, based on maintaining the Wheel of Life reincarnation cycle. [Note: Buddhism is about the escaping of the wheel of life through enlightenment; Zaoism is the opposite goal of Buddhism, within the Buddhist view.] Zaoism is inherently evil, and the cycle of reincarnation is the ancestral curse to everyone who dies there, even if you weren't born in Kaidan. This is Kaidan's equivalent to the Dark Powers path to Dark Lord status; the mechanic that makes the setting cursed.

Yokinto (a conjunction of yokai and shinto) is the ancient nature venerating and ancestral spirit religion that predates Zaoism, and acknowledged even by the realms villianous authorities - the Provincial Daimyo, Empire, Shogunate. While it is still universally practiced, even by the yokai races (kappa, henge, and tengu), it is inherently weak, as it lacks the strength to overpower the machinations of Zaoism.

The Setting, Kaidan itself is the most gothic feature of all. European gothic features castles, romantic ruins, abbeys, monasteries, religious sites, generally within areas of pristine natural beauty, that provides a backdrop to the contrasting elements of horror. Kaidan is all that, enhanced with the exotic being a reflection of authentic Japanese culture - and the darkest version of that as well. What better place to serve as the environment for exotic horror, rare natural beauty, castles, temples, shrines, monasteries than ancient Japan.

Being a reader of modern horror and a lover horror movies (since forever), I am also influenced by gritty pulp tropes, J-Horror (Japanese horror genre), H. P. Lovecraft and Cthulu fiction, late gothic Edgar Alan Poe, being a favorite, and having read some of the classic gothic romances, like Mary Shelly's Frankenstein, and some of Lord Byron's work - all this influences my creation of Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting. And already mentioned, Ravenloft 1e-2e is certainly a source of major inspiration as well. It's me creating something like Ravenloft, that is it's own thing, so I can freely publish it for Pathfinder, and not trip over legal harrassments regarding intellectual property ownership.

[Zilfer]

Plenty of campaigns don't have much to do with a struggle of good vs. evil in any deep sense. The PCs just roamed around killing monsters and taking their stuff, or got up to all sorts of other mischief trying to get rich and famous.

I like that you started with a family curse. That's always a good one. Is your campaign run tabletop? I'd love to read about it.

Out of curiosity, If you aren't familar with gothics, what was it that drew you to Ravenloft? I6?

I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons and as most people probably are i thought it was going to be a nerd fest/corky game. (I am a nerd already at this point so i played yugioh and the like so i let my friend talk me into it)

My friend's dad introduced us to it because his son was doing nothing over the summer and he didn't want him doing nothing so he asked him to get some people together and he'd run it. (his dad played back when it first came out, he still have his original dice from the first set that came out. They look horrible as hell from all the rolling it must have done)

So his dad has faded out as a DM and i've taken over the main DM slot, but his dad allows me to look through all of his DnD stuff and i came across Ravenloft, i had previous ran into this site and was slightly curious so i looked up which adventure this was and realized it was the one that spawned the whole ravenloft series so i was excited to run it and did so with the intention of it being a one shot. (ended up playing 3 sessions over a weekend that pretty much lasted end of first day half the second day and most the morning of the next.) They liked it so much I began to make up additional things they could do (and brought Strahd back which is ironic since he had a contingency spell against sunlight I found out later, which is how they tried to kill him) I was using the booklet stats which is mucher weaker at the time, but now i have his rewritten stats so he's well more then a match for the party now.

During this time I joined a PbP campaign here i believe you were in it as a Halfling named Khalafi? (EDIT: Nope I mistaked you from somewhere else, I see you around this board alot however...) Maybe I'm mistaking you with someone else, anyways i didn't come back for awhile so i got left behind in that but i managed to spur some interest in playing Ravenloft again and I managed to get the campaign setting books DMG/PHB/MM of Ravenloft that 3.5 ones so I was able to do it much better. Ever since I've been trying to come on here daily for inspirtation. The site doesn't move at the pace I would like but i understand because it's an old campaign setting not getting much attention these days. If there was then their would be a lot less quality posts i think from the sheer mass of bandwagoning. xD

The reason I was attracted to this is because most people love a good vampire story, and I love the game Silent hill 2(only friend I know that is obsessed with it is me.) which let me tell you.... The mist.... (Ravenloft) the Fog.... (Silent hill) seems pretty similar.

It indeed is tabletop though I can assure you it's probably not too gothic at the moment, from reading around here i'm trying to get more of a feeling on how to run it. (Good news is Ravenloft is definitely my more Roleplay driven campaigns, with not too much fighting)

Also the Family Curse one is actually hopefully set up for later when the "main" group gets to Mordentshire which is where I want them to go upon leaving Barovia. I played a 1 on 1 campaign with a friend that lives at my place, and asked him to make a Ravenloft character. (he's not to big on it but I think i drew him liking this short session we played after i got off work xd)

Spoiler tag for those who don't want to read above mentioned Campaign information and to save space for those just viewing the MAIN topic.

VIEW CONTENT:

I started off with a cutscene, of the player's mother coming to a vistani to ask 2 questions. What sex would the child be.... and as it true what she heard from her husband's father. The vistani confirmed it would be a boy, and that "He believes the curse to be real." To put a shadow of a doubt on it. Then I cut to him being 9 year's old hunting with his father, let him try to shoot a Deer as a child. (he missed by 1 AC xD pretty damn good roll for a kid xD) His father laughs as he tries to shoot it running away -8 to hit it. They start to go home because night is falling soon and they hear what sounds like a rider coming towards them in the night. Looking around my friend chris rolls 18 to spot naturally and sees it before his father and points it out. His father kneels down and tells him to run home, now. He starts to run and hear's his father say....

"Your here for me, leave him out of this."

Chris' Character Erik dares one look back in time to see a headless rider garbed in black whip out a chain of bone. (think spinal cord) and take off his father's head. He then runs the rest of the way home.

Then I cut to him waking up from a nightmare that has plagued him since that time. His mother still hasn't told him about the family curse. (which I have that each son will die upon his 30th birthday. I've come up with a twist for that rider that, the rider changes for each son because it's actually their father coming to claim them. I just need a crime that fits the curse I thinks.... or to come up with a better twist. )

He was in the works to become a guard so he had his first guard duty and met a pretty nasty individual who makes trouble around the town. (he would get into a fight in an alleyway fist to fist with this guy.) Take in mind he's playing off the class of lvl 0 aristocat, and he actually rolled pretty average day run of the mill joe stats. (no +2's or higher in anything) After doing being shown the ropes, stopping a fight over a girl, and the general patrol around Mordentshire Robert (the Guard Captian) lets him go for the day and he goes about to the pub. I skip to him 2 years (which i think is far as i'm going to skip ahead because now he only had 10 years to live at age 20) and he's moved out of his mother's house but not too far down the street, working as a guard, and on his day off he meets a pretty lady. Natalia, he woes her with knowledge of book stores, and a critical roll on which is a good romance book xD damn he's good. She since he wasn't pushing the subject invites herself to dinner with him at his house. They obviously have a nice dinner (that he calls his mother over to help cook and then leave xD), and have a shall we say "good night".

Next morning his on duty and gets jumped by Viktor and 2 people. He almost knocks viktor out before viktor knocked him out. He goes down but not before he hears a loud cracking noise. He wakes up and i introduce Ean one of his friends, and largest men around town. They talk for awhile, and he explains he was in the area with a wonderful lady named Natalia who he thinks he might get lucky with tonight. Erik pretends to be happy for him not saying anything about having already had that, and possibly realizing she gets around alot.

That night on guard patrol he hears a scream from Ean's house finds Ean torn to shreds the window busted in, and Natalia cowering in a closet down the hallway that she had ran to. He gets the guard captain and they invite a doctor... (wink). Examining the remains the doctor infers this wasn't done any human, this is slightly rhetorical since there are scratch marks about the place. They hold Natalia at the station and Erik goes to question her more about what had attacked Ean and she said it was a large black beast that kind of looked like a dog or wolf. He says she'll be save here but she's not convinced and confides in him that her old lover has found her again and this is the first place he will look. She'd be safer at someone's house who's strong.... like him. xD.

He goes about to the book store he met Natalia at. (btw the old man working here asked her name which he didn't know at the time, this is an informant of the Doctor who just swore he saw a ghost from the past...) Erik asks for things that has creatures like the one he tries to describe with lack of werewolf knowledge. He is told back self on the top, and he goes through this trying to find a weakness. He gets things like, only true love, sunlight, silver can hurt this thing. "What do I have to do hug the thing to death?" ~ Erik.

He goes to a smith and tries to get a silver dagger commissioned but it will take a day, and the one that they currently have was made for a particular client. (who's hunting the same thing ) So he goes and buy's Silverware and sharpens the knives. He gets an addition guard stationed at his house to watch the outside and stays up making sure Natalia's in a windowless room. Hearing movement outside he looks for Micheal (the guard) and he's not there.... hears a scream indoors and rushes to find a huge hulking beast which I let him get a surprise round on since he's a lvl 0 guy against a CR 5 monster. (I'm planning on him failing this but surprise was on his side this day.) He rolls a 20 as he runs up and stabs the thing in the back. I use the damage of a dagger for the knife. 1d4+str which is 1 for him. So he get's a 5 and a 5. Lucky bastard already took out half the wolves health. He gets another attack for winning initiative but misses. Monster swipes him and he's barely alive, 0hp and attacks to try and hurt the thing just a bit more. He misses and goes -1. The guard who went out for a bathroom break comes in and he tosses the silver knife at the guard who fumbles it and is confused by the silver knife. A Shoe hits the werewolf distracting him for a moment for the guard to pick up the knife. (You can see this encounter is slightly story driven but the turn order actually allowed it to be. I'm rolling these rolls out in the open too so i can't really curve the results) The guard almost dies before landing a final blow. (2 blows was all it took) and they rush to Erik patching him up at -3, and he asks for a cup of alcohol. (perfect for the DM to finish what I wanted) He goes down looking and takes more then a few moments so Natalia goes to 'help'. He hears a scuffling downstairs or he thinks so and heads down and Natalia's there with his cup of alochol saying Michael went to get the guards. They talk for a brief time and then she begins to massage his neck. (her hands then start turning sharp and hairy) He tries to sit up but is forced down and the doctor from earlier walks in firing a single bullet. To which the werewolf bolts out the window. (Enter Rudolf Van Richten) Warning that he's pretty lucky and that he was glad George wasn't here, other wise their might have been many more deaths. They go back to his place to make sure Lycanthropy doesn't set into him. (he failed the infection roll btw but Via DM Feit i'm ignoring it.... for now. It may crop out later i don't know. Maybe after family curse or at a very bad moment?)

He learns that Robert has an unspoken agreement with Van Richten for the normal folk of the town that weird stuff gets 'overlooked'. This is where i allow him to become an actually class, which he story drives his class pick changing his plan from being a rogue to a ranger because he wants "Favored Enemy: Werewolves". This is where I currently have ended it, next private session with him will involve the Vistani coming to town, and possibly another hunt with Van Richten or his "nieces" that he offhandily referred to. I'm introducing them and trying to get a feel for these characters before the main group meets them and perhaps they'll run into Erik, and to me the town will actually have history besides the made up stuff. It takes a lot of thinking i think to run a decent Ravenloft campaign:D

Also, those campaigns you mentioned just go everywhere and kill loot do not sound too interesting. But to each his own.

[Five]

How often do you use gothic tropes?

That really depends on what I'm trying to achieve, and what domain the episodes are taking place in. Some domains are gothic by design, while other I find need some prep work. The setting itself is what I would consider 'self-infused' (to us it acts almost like THE villain), so it's quite easy to amp the gothic themes up or down. But like ewancummins, our brew consists of several other influences. Two parts gothic, one part Robert E. Howard (or the violence of, when things can/do peak into physical confrontation), a dash of grim fantasy, and most recently a pinch of William Hope Hodgson. Throw in some original (if ideas can even be considered as such), and that's how I would describe our ever-evolving formula for Ravenloft.

How important is the cosmic struggle of Good versus Evil in your campaigns?

Now, it's an unspoken constant. If that even makes sense. You see, one episode found the PCs visited by a member of the Brotherhood of the Legacy, a group of cosmic beings comprised of pure knowledge, who imparted upon them the need to balance the battle between Good and Evil. Yeah, I played the whole "Big Bang is actually the result of the clash, without one nothing would exist" thing. It was a step-up moment for those PCs who began doubting their ability to fight back the darkness that was their world (some admittedly cruel setbacks saw to that), and the visit was intentionally weirded out to reflect such an encounter. A 'sleeping detective' (psychic detective that worked through dreams) was hired for a completely different reason but was subsequently hi-jacked by a member of the Brotherhood, who first tested the PCs, then opened up to them...anyway. Yeah. Ha. It's important.

Do your PCs or NPCs ever resemble gothic archetypes?

NPCs, yes. Almost as a backbone, but not enough to become predictable. I hope. In fact, red herring NPCs (or, story placement of) have probably become my greatest challenge.

[ewancummins]

Also, those campaigns you mentioned just go everywhere and kill loot do not sound too interesting. But to each his own.

Yeah, I wouldn't be interested in a game that consisted only of fighting and looting.


On the other hand, many good D&d campaigns start out with simple 'loot the dungeon' premise, and evolve into more complex stories. The PCs define their own goals, as indviduals and as a party. They make friends and enemies through the course of their adventures. They explore the 'sandbox.' It can be a lot of fun. The story emerges in play, rather than being imposed by the DM from above.

For Ravenloft, especially PbP, I use a somewhat more focused model. I still make plenty of room for player choice, of course! It wouldn't be a game if the players' choices didn't matter. I write short stories when I wish to be in full control.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I probably don't use Gothic tropes as often as I should, particularly in my fanfiction. The idea of my protagonists being weak sort of goes against my methods and brings back rather bad memories of being weak IRL growing up (peer abuse, aka bullying, does leave scars that don't always heal; couple that with emotional abuse at home and you get the picture). Rather they tend to weaken themselves out of fear of others' reactions and the potential attention of the Dark Powers or the Red Death.

Other tropes, like the powerful-but-cursed villain, I do use a lot. There's a comfort in knowing that all their power will also be their downfall. Or that their power is not what they really wanted and they have no one to blame but themselves for their true desires being out of reach.

Mystery, subtle horror, knowledge best left unknown, those are staples. Growing up on a diet of visceral, in-your-face horror of the '80s I've grown inured to such. It's what I don't know that scares me the most. And even when secrets are revealed, the cold light of knowledge often brings more sorrow.

NPCs I try to fit in with the archetypes. An antagonist that will become recurring in the Lost Journals, Sonia Darkleaf, is an example of one so motivated by a need for revenge that her methods will only bring more suffering on herself and leave her feeling empty in the end. More beneficient NPCs tend towards the idea of "a single candle banishing the darkness." Some flare, others flicker out, but each helps illuminate the path in their own way and leaves the world just a bit better for their efforts. Even if that's inspiring just one other person. "The only thing evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing" and all that.

[BedrockBrendan]

My ravenloft campaigns tend to be a touch campy and embrace e hammer studios angle.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I'm not sure how gothic my campaign is in the traditional sense, but I certainly try to stick close the the gothic trappings most of the time. I'll occasionally venture a bit into fantasy or steampunk or what have you, but for the most part, foggy moors, creaky castles, and monsters that are or once were human are my preference.

[herkles]

Well i am working on a ravenloft game that might be ran in a month or two. So I will try to stick to using the trappings and tropes of gothic horror. However, I do know that I plan to use a lot of fairy tale tropes as well as folklore.

[ewancummins]

Well i am working on a ravenloft game that might be ran in a month or two. So I will try to stick to using the trappings and tropes of gothic horror. However, I do know that I plan to use a lot of fairy tale tropes as well as folklore.

Fairy tales are cool. I think they can mesh well with a Gothic/Romantic Ravenloft.

[herkles]

Fairy tales are cool. I think they can mesh well with a Gothic/Romantic Ravenloft.

I agree; I am basing my falkovinia off a mix of gothic tales and fairy tales. My Falkovinia takes a lot of influence from the concept of Pan's Labyrinth for example.

[ewancummins]

Fairy tales are cool. I think they can mesh well with a Gothic/Romantic Ravenloft.

I agree; I am basing my falkovinia off a mix of gothic tales and fairy tales. My Falkovinia takes a lot of influence from the concept of Pan's Labyrinth for example.

I love that movie.

My Dad watched it recently. He told me that the faun (not really Pan, it's 'the Faun's Labyrnith in Spanish) speaks very old fashioned Spanish, like what Cervantes would have used.

(Dad speaks Spanish from living in several South American countries).

[Zilfer]

^That is pretty cool right there. still wished i knew another lanaguage. xD