Game of Thrones - the TV series

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I just realized that I've been discussing this just about everywhere except here. Anyone else watching? Book reader or non-book reader? I've read them all, but I love seeing how non-readers (like my wife) are reacting to the show.

Not directly Ravenloft related, but low-fantasy, courtly intrigue, even some undead. Many, many inspiring ideas for Ravenloft in this series. And regardless, it's just darn good.

So far, I'm pleased by the adaptation aside from a few nitpicks. (where are the wolves?) Spectacular casting/acting. I love seeing fantasy taken seriously, and kudos to HBO for taking a chance on translating such a dense, epic work to the screen, and not cutting corners.

[Manofevil]

With lots of RAPE!

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I wouldn't say lots of rape. There is a little rape here and there. (not that I'm condoning rape, but I'm not condoning decapitations either, and it's probably got more of those than the rape.)

[alhoon]

I was thinking of watching it along with my sister, but she thinks it'll be too brutal for her tastes.
You have read the books and watched the first 3 episodes while I've neither. So could you tell me if it's too brutal and bloody for my sister?

Also if I haven't read the book, do I miss things in the plot or just plot arcs that go unexplored from the book but do not directly affect my comprehension of what goes on?
Do you think that at their current pace they would finish the first book in season 1, or it will need more episodes than 10? I.e. are they at about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the book with the first 3 episodes?

I was thinking of reading the books once the series end. After WoT, I prefer series that have ended instead of waiting 2 years for the next book.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I was thinking of watching it along with my sister, but she thinks it'll be too brutal for her tastes.
You have read the books and watched the first 3 episodes while I've neither. So could you tell me if it's too brutal and bloody for my sister?

Well, it depends on your sister. It is very brutal. Definitely "R-Rated" as we would say here in the states. Not sure what you'd call that in Greece. 18 and older only. Nudity, violence, and sometimes both at the same time.

Also if I haven't read the book, do I miss things in the plot or just plot arcs that go unexplored from the book but do not directly affect my comprehension of what goes on?

That's up for debate. I've seen people online trying to make sense of things without the books and so far it seems to be working for the most part. My wife is not a good example, though, since she loves spoilers and has to know everything that's going on or hinted at, so she has me fill in the gaps with ny book knowledge. The number one issue is that there are LOTS of characters, introduced very quickly. If you look at some of the spoiler-free family trees at hbo.com, though, it should be somewhat clear.

Do you think that at their current pace they would finish the first book in season 1, or it will need more episodes than 10? I.e. are they at about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the book with the first 3 episodes?

yes, they will, it was decided from the start that the 1st season would cover the 1st book in 10 episodes. I've seen people on line counting pages, and so far they are almost exactly on track. (It's a very direct adaptation so far. scenes match up 90% exactly with the book.)

I was thinking of reading the books once the series end. After WoT, I prefer series that have ended instead of waiting 2 years for the next book.

Understandable, though I can't recommend the books enough. They are really spectacular. There was a 6 years break between book 4 and 5 in this one, (5 comes out in june) and there are supposed to be 7 altogether. But maybe the existence of the show will light a fire under the author to finish the last two before they are needed for the show. There are a good number of child characters, and they got some really spectacular child actors, it seems. It would be a shame for them to grow up too much to continue playing the characters if there's another 6 years between the next two books.

[alhoon]

From what I've heard is usually a bit less than a minute / page for most such things. I.e. Lord of the rings.

10 episodes x 55 mins = 550 mins. That would cover about 600-700 pages of book adequatly which is ... what? 70% of the book? Unless they prolong battles etc eating up time, they would propably put most of the book in the series. It would propably be as good addaption as the first LotR movie with the first LotR book. Some things will be missing but the movie rolls out fine.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

It's about 700 pages in hardcover, 800 in paperback. I'm not sure of the exact run time, but it's HBO and there are no commercials, so 55 minutes may be right. (taking into account credits, recaps and previews) So they should have no trouble fitting it in.

Another episode last night. I enjoyed it quite a bit, though my wife was bored until the last 5 minutes or so. Still more characters being introduced, though. hopefully things will pick up soon as everyone knows who is who and

VIEW CONTENT:

people start dying off

.

[alhoon]

700 pages? You said they've cut some things out already so that means they will prolong battles in the end or something, cause they will run out of book in episode 9 or something.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I think they'll be fine. They've left some minor stuff out, but added some stuff too. (nothing so huge as say, Aragorn's cliff jumping journey) there's plenty of compression and stretching to be done. It'll fit just fine, I think.

[alhoon]

If the author is happy, then I'll be happy with it too I suppose.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I hate to say this, alhoon, since you know I love WoT, but the saddest part of reading Game of Thrones*** is seeing how poorly WoT compares to it. I mean, WoT is great and all, but we both know it has its flaws. The flaws become more glaring once you've read GoT. My loyalty to WoT made me cling to it as the better series while I was reading GoT, but I eventually had to admit "defeat" and concede that GoT is just better executed. Fair warning... the comparison is inevitable once you've read both.



(***yes, yes, the book is A Game of Thrones, and the series is A Song of Ice and Fire. Shortening the title to Game of Thrones for the TV show was a great idea, since that's what everyone I know calls the books anyway...)

[alhoon]

I'm not in the payroll of Jordan Gonzoron. If the GoT is better, then I'll be happy. Yes WoT has it's flaws. If GoT is flawless then it doesn't mean WoT is bad, it just means GoT is increadible and I'll enjoy reading it very, very, very much while I'd enjoy reading WoT Book 12C just very, very much.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that GoT for me would be better than WoT. My cousin also prefers the "Song of Fire and Ice" over WoT but from flipping GoT for a couple of minutes reading here and there a paragraph 4-5 years ago, I decided I liked the writting of WoT more. Also my cousin said that while GoT is better, WoT is lighter read.
I'm absolutely sure that I'll like GoT. I'm not that sure that I'll like it more.

PS. Both me and my cousin prefer the way Brandon ghost writes the book than Jordan. We also generally prefer Salvatore to Jordan. Generally as 6/10 times. Depends on the mood and the book of course. Book 12B and Book 4 from Jordan were superb IMO.

On the other hand I find it strange that you bring "loyalty" and "admit defeat" here. Just enjoy the books Gonzoron. It's not a contest and if it was... you wouldn't be winning anything anyway.
Example: I liked LotRings a lot. I prefer WoT from LotR hands on though. Half the times I mention that I prefer Salvatore or Jordan to Tolkien though, the Tolkien fans are out to kill me and convince me I'm wrong.
Still that reminds me of football team fans. Yes, I'm loyal to my team (Olympiakos) but let's face it, there are better teams in the world. The same goes to WoT. I don't think that anything I'll read will go so far into my heart as WoT (Which I'm reading for the past 8 or so years) but I realize there are propably better books out there.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

If GoT is flawless...

not completely flawless, but darn close, IMHO.

Also my cousin said that while GoT is better, WoT is lighter read.
I'm absolutely sure that I'll like GoT. I'm not that sure that I'll like it more.

That is true. WoT has more of an action/adventure feel. GoT is more dense and political. I suppose it's possible to like WoT better, if GoT's aesthetic just isn't for you.

On the other hand I find it strange that you bring "loyalty" and "admit defeat" here. Just enjoy the books Gonzoron. It's not a contest and if it was... you wouldn't be winning anything anyway.

Yes, I know, it's just a sort of sentimental thing, I think. And your analogy of team loyalty is spot on. I still love WoT, and nothing can take that away (well, maybe if Brandon botches the ending! ) but there was definitely a sadness similar to watching a childhood favorite cartoon as an adult. GoT is harsher, grittier, more "real." Most of the characters feel deeper. In many ways, it's more "adult". So much so, that after reading GoT, I was worried that I wouldn't enjoy The Gathering Storm, but once I picked it up, I got right back into the swing of things. Going back to GoT was a refreshing change of pace, and I could appreciate it for what it was. I just no longer saw it as the masterpiece of modern fantasy.

[alhoon]

Really? Did you find refreshing going for WoT to GoT and back again? I would think it would be confusing for me, since (from what I've heard) they require different mood.
Interesting idea there. Perhaps I'll pick up the second book after the series finish and read it in-between WoT books (I guess I would be at book 4-5 by then).
Which leads us to:
With the way things go in the series so far, do you think I'll be able to read and understand book 2 or I need to read book1 first?

Unrelated: I also feel sadness watching favorite childhood cartoons. In my mind they were so much better. I don't know what it is that makes them less when I watch them again. My sister still watches her favorite cartoons over and over. Say, she has watched "thundercats" at least 3 times.

EDIT: I'm halfway to the first episode and I start to get confused. So far I've seen 10+ characters that are potentionally important and I should remember their names. Not to mention the very nice title scene where it counts the important cities or whatever while it shows credits.
Also since there are 7 kingdoms... why they have a capital?
I like the show so far, but IMO it's geared towards those that have read the book. Keep in mind that I woke up refreshed, checked emails, had a cup of coffee and started watching the first episode. There was no chance I could watch this yesterday night, after 9 hours of mental work.

EDIT2: And of course, they keep pilling up by the minute. They seem intent to get me know the whole aristocracy of the whole kingdom in the first episode.
I give up, can you link me to that no-spoiler site that says who's married with whom's sister and who wanted to get married with whom's sister but she was killed before hand etc?

EDIT3: And yes, the characters are deeper and more varied than WoT. Which makes tracking them harder. Go figure which ambition any man or woman has and what he/she wants. I have trouble distinguishing good guys from bad guys. I liked Jordan's "I don't like shades of gray, I like good and bad"

All in all, I love it, it's very good, it's of the quality of the "Rome" series, but I'm really overwhelmed here. It's book stuff, not series stuff. What I don't like is the age of some characters that are involved in sexual intercourse. That Tay-something girl that married the barbarian looks like she's 15! Yes, I know they were considered women back then, still I find it unsettling.
I also find it odd that people scream to their king and queen "no, my wolf didn't almost killed the royal prince, my wolf just... scarred him for life. No biggie!"

Also it reminds me too much of Byzantine history. Especially the 1070s where the emperor was captured by treachery when fighting the Turks and then we had a civil war for 10 years till a competent general took the throne.

Random remarks:

VIEW CONTENT:

- Nightwatch rules. I like them. Guarding a wall of ice against barbarians, never deserting etc. I wonder how they will fare in a decade long winter though up their knees in ice.
- That hovel of a castle in the North, winter-something, isn't a place for a king. Especially one that just wants the perks and not the job. No wonder he didn't go up there for 9 years. That Stark guy will have a lot of work to prevent people from assassinating the king.
- The king kissed and fondled another woman in front of his wife. It's one thing to tolerate rumors and another to do that in front of a whole court of your sycophants and the CL5 people of that castle. Hurt feeling aside, it's a blow to the queen's honor.
- The Queen's brother is IMO honorless. He should have challenged the king to a duel to the death or something after he dishonored his sister so badly.
- Of course the would-be-king that gives away his sister happily to a barbarian warlord isn't much better but at least he keeps pretences.

EPISODE2:
- Why are all the queen's children so blond? Besides the first one, the rest are too blond for such a dark-haired father.
- I like very much the "house above all" thing that most of the characters (pretend to) have. I find it realistic. Back then, loyalty to the country was secondary. Usually you were loyal to a noble that was or wasn't loyal to the king. If that noble flipped sides, you flipped sides. If it would promote house interests to stab your former allies in the back, you did so and you were honorable.
- I like the midget. He's very well spoken and seems keen to help his house (and himself). I hope he doesn't get killed anytime soon.
- The fire + assassin+blond hair seems to fast. Was it like this in the book? Seems something like it would draw for a while, and it would be better if we didn't know beforehand.
- Wasn't the blondie too fast in convincing the barbarian to such a leap in sex positions?!? Wouldn't it be proper with him on top at first? Also, she's burning all her newfound knowledge in one go. How will she keep him interested for years if she's so fast?
- Ehhh... isn't there a penalty for throwing wolves on royal princes and threatening them with swords?!? For the family too?

Episode 3:
- Six million gold coins in debt when a tournament costs 80K?!? "Counting coppers" for the king is owing 3million gold coins to his wife's family?!? And his wife's family allows him to pretend she doesn't exist and cheat on her to her face?!?!?!?
- So, little girls and wolves attacking royal heirs is more-or-less OK. Queens throwing children from towers to protect their dirty laundry (crown and heads) is not.
- Truth be told, the barbarians are awesome. They have their own rules and they stick to them. Their brutal honesty is refreshing after so much bickering and protocols.
- The nightwatch continues to be awesome too. Everyone gets what he earns.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Really? Did you find refreshing going for WoT to GoT and back again? I would think it would be confusing for me, since (from what I've heard) they require different mood.

Well, it wasn't back to back. There was a long gap, and other books in between, some with even more of a different mood. (Like the Lensman series).

With the way things go in the series so far, do you think I'll be able to read and understand book 2 or I need to read book1 first?

I would think so. The main thing missing from the show is the inner thoughts of the characters, obviously. So far it doesn't seem like plot points have been left out, even minor ones.

EDIT: I'm halfway to the first episode and I start to get confused. So far I've seen 10+ characters that are potentionally important and I should remember their names. Not to mention the very nice title scene where it counts the important cities or whatever while it shows credits.

Yes, there are a LOT of characters dumped on you in the first episode, and it doesn't really stop. Every episode since then has added 3-8 new ones. But there's not much to be done about that without radically altering the structure of the first arc of the plot. I was surprised that they didn't cut or combine a few of the Stark kids, but other than that, nearly everyone from the first episode needed to be in the show, and they all show up at once. Maybe if they had a full 22-episode season to work with, they could have lingered on just the Starks first, and pushed the introduction of the Lannisters and Baratheons (and maybe the Targaryen/Dothraki plot) until the next episode. But with 10 epsiodes, they don't have that luxury.

Also since there are 7 kingdoms... why they have a capital?

Much like the U.K. or the U.S., the 7 Kingdoms were independent hundreds of years ago, but have since been merged into a single kingdom, with a single king and single capital.

I give up, can you link me to that no-spoiler site that says who's married with whom's sister

Here's the official one:
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-th ... de/houses/
here's one with everything on one page:
http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones/

Note that both of these are spoiler free unless you consider pictures and names of characters not yet shown on the show to be spoilers.

And who wanted to get married with whom's sister but she was killed before hand etc?

That doesn't show up on the trees, but I can tell you that Robert Baratheon was supposed to marry Lyanna Stark (but she died, and he ended up with Cersei Lannister instead), and Catelyn "Cat" Stark (nee Tully) was supposed to marry Brandon Stark (but he died, and she ended up with Eddard "Ned" Stark instead). Also, had the Targaryens not been exiled, Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen would likely have married each other, because the Targaryens traditionally did that sort of thing to keep their "Dragon's Blood" pure. (Viserys and Dany's parents were siblings, for example...)

I have trouble distinguishing good guys from bad guys. I liked Jordan's "I don't like shades of gray, I like good and bad"

Yup, this is very much the opposite. Everything is gray. After 4 books, I can count the number of "pure good" or "pure evil" characters on one hand. There's no mystical source of all evil or all good in GoT, it's purely human self-interest for the most part.

All in all, I love it, it's very good, it's of the quality of the "Rome" series, but I'm really overwhelmed here. It's book stuff, not series stuff.

Glad you are enjoying it despite the confusion. I haven't watched Rome, but I've seen GoT compared to it (and The Borgias, and The Wire) often. Hopefully, there will be some appeal to non-readers, since that will be required to keep the show on the air. It's been renewed for a 2nd season already, but to keep going after that, it needs sustained ratings.

What I don't like is the age of some characters that are involved in sexual intercourse. That Tay-something girl that married the barbarian looks like she's 15! Yes, I know they were considered women back then, still I find it unsettling.

I think it's supposed to be unsettling, for what that's worth. Rest assured the actress is 23, though the character she's playing is around 16. It's worse in the books, she's 13. They aged up all the "children" by 3 years or so. As you said, it's historically realistic, but of course uncomfortable to modern eyes.

I also find it odd that people scream to their king and queen "no, my wolf didn't almost killed the royal prince, my wolf just... scarred him for life. No biggie!"

Yeah, but he deserved it. Seriously, though, Robert is very much a "boys will be boys" "kids will be kids" sort of guy. He seems angry that he even needs to get involved. And I get the sense that he's the type that thinks his kids should have a few scars. He was after all angry that Joffrey got beaten by a girl. But overall, he's not the kind of king that goes for formality and bowing and scraping (witness his telling Ned to "get up" when he keeps bowing.) If the kid daughter of his best friend yells at him, he'll let it slide.

Also it reminds me too much of Byzantine history. Especially the 1070s where the emperor was captured by treachery when fighting the Turks and then we had a civil war for 10 years till a competent general took the throne.

The author has outright said he was inspired by the British War of the Roses. I don't know much about the Byzantines, but that sounds similar, for sure.

VIEW CONTENT:

That hovel of a castle in the North, winter-something, isn't a place for a king. Especially one that just wants the perks and not the job. No wonder he didn't go up there for 9 years. That Stark guy will have a lot of work to prevent people from assassinating the king.

Winterfell, and while I wouldn't call it a hovel, yes you're right. Wait until you see more of King's Landing, the contrast is well executed on the screen.

- The king kissed and fondled another woman in front of his wife. It's one thing to tolerate rumors and another to do that in front of a whole court of your sycophants and the CL5 people of that castle. Hurt feeling aside, it's a blow to the queen's honor.

CL5. LOL. Yup, Robert comes off a bit more poorly in the show than in the book. In the book, he's more of a lovable boor. In the show, the lovable part doesn't come through as much. But the Queen is not blameless here either. She is after all having sex with her twin brother. But yes, at least she keeps it private.

- The Queen's brother is IMO honorless. He should have challenged the king to a duel to the death or something after he dishonored his sister so badly.

Jaime's honor is a big question mark. As you've heard/seen in more recent episodes, he's sworn to protect the King, as a member of the Kingsguard. But that didn't stop him from killing the previous King who he'd also sworn to protect.

EPISODE2:

- Why are all the queen's children so blond? Besides the first one, the rest are too blond for such a dark-haired father.

I won't answer this question, but I will just say that it won't go unnoticed by other characters.

I like the midget. He's very well spoken and seems keen to help his house (and himself). I hope he doesn't get killed anytime soon.

yup, one of my favorites as well. I especially love the way he subverts the usual role of a "dwarf" in fantasy. He's not a bearded blacksmith from a race of underground miners. He's just a short human, a true dwarf. It's also interesting how you can be led by the author to hate his house, but love him, even though he's loyal to the rest of them.

The fire + assassin+blond hair seems to fast. Was it like this in the book? Seems something like it would draw for a while, and it would be better if we didn't know beforehand.

No, everything feels a bit faster in the show, even if they don't leave much out. It's just slower feeling when you read it for some reason. And the blonde hair bit was added for TV.

Wasn't the blondie too fast in convincing the barbarian to such a leap in sex positions?!? Wouldn't it be proper with him on top at first? Also, she's burning all her newfound knowledge in one go. How will she keep him interested for years if she's so fast?

Again, everything feels a bit accelerated on TV, and Dany's plot is one of the best examples. But I'm sure that's not the only trick a veteran of a "pleasure house" can teach her.

- Ehhh... isn't there a penalty for throwing wolves on royal princes and threatening them with swords?!? For the family too?

Death of the wolf (or lacking that wolf, another wolf) seems to be the going rate. Also, death, if you're just a Butcher's Boy. Being the daughter of an allied noble house gets your sentence reduced to just the wrath of your sister's future inlaws.

Episode 3:

And his wife's family allows him to pretend she doesn't exist and cheat on her to her face?!?!?!?

To borrow from another classic work: "It's good to be the King." At least for the moment.