Goblinoids in the Mists

[ewancummins]

This is a thread for discussion of goblins, norkers, hobgoblins, goblyns, calibans, and other orc/goblin type humanoids in the Demiplane of Dread.

I'll kick off with some questions.

Which ones do you include, if any? In which domains do you place them?

Would any of those be allowed as playable races in your campaign? Which rules would you use?

Are they natural beings that reproduce in a normal fashion, or something weirder? Fairies? Mutants? Cursed humans or demihumans?

[KingCorn]

One interesting idea I saw about goblinoids is that they are goblyns that have decided to act more "civilized", or some sort of goblyn-touched, like there are fae-touched beings.
It could also be they are the spawn of some exiled fey, who in their resentment twisted themselves and their creations into goblinoids.

[ewancummins]

In a previous, non-Ravenloft campaign, my goblins were evil spirits that possessed and transmogrified human children.
Dance, magic dance!
This might work in Tepest.
I'm not inclined to use the Shadow Fey, so I'd probably connecvt this with the hags instead.

In that same campaign, orcs were hive creatures sort of like the gargun of Harn, although the particulars were quite different. I got the idea from...
SPOILER for LORD OF THE RINGS

VIEW CONTENT:

the orcs going blind, dropping dead, or running amok after Sauron is destroyed and his control of them thus cut off. Tolkien compares it to an anthill in chaos after the queen is destroyed.

Hive orcs are fun, but in Ravenloft I would use the Marikith instead.

Did one of the 3E or 4E books make the Tergs into goblins?

[Mistmaster]

Tepest and Forlorn are my goblinoid homelands. Tepest houses Orcs and Ogres too.
Calibans are mutant humans, I use them as Marvel mutants. Some of them are less möstrous than other. All of them breed true. Goblinoids andOrcs could be used as adventurers even if theyr are usually reluctant to leave theyr lands.

[ewancummins]

Forlorn!
I have the boxed set, Castles Forlorn. It's fun.
I am not sure that I like the domain to be infested with goblyns, though. The eerie quiet of the Black Box version appeals to me. A forlorn country...


Goblyns do hit a lot of switches for me:

eeeevil
unnatural/supernatural origin
minions of an evil master
warped humans/false humans
cool attack form (that face ripping action)

[Mistmaster]

My Forlorn, if you remember it is a bit different.http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10417

[ewancummins]

My Forlorn, if you remember it is a bit different.http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10417

Ah, yes!

I'd play a happily play a goblin in a campaign that was set in that domain.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Did one of the 3E or 4E books make the Tergs into goblins?

Dorian was referee to as the “Goblyn King” but I believe that was just a nasty nickname given by the defeated Barovian populace. They also said Tergs worshiped demons and ate people, this is likely also an exaggeration.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

In a previous, non-Ravenloft campaign, my goblins were evil spirits that possessed and transmogrified human children.
Dance, magic dance!

Nice, I love the movie Labyrinth!

In that same campaign, orcs were hive creatures sort of like the gargun of Harn, although the particulars were quite different. I got the idea from...
SPOILER for LORD OF THE RINGS

VIEW CONTENT:

the orcs going blind, dropping dead, or running amok after Sauron is destroyed and his control of them thus cut off. Tolkien compares it to an anthill in chaos after the queen is destroyed.

Hive orcs are fun, but in Ravenloft I would use the Marikith instead.

This same sort of thing happened with the Urgals in Eragon.

VIEW CONTENT:

Up through the battle at the Varden hideout, they were under the control of Durza the shade. When he was killed, they got disoriented and turned on each other. Afterward, the Urgals joined to support the Varden in opposing Emperor Galbatorix, so we got to see their culture, giving us a more holistic view than the outside-in perspective of them being rather savage.

[Cromstar]

This is a thread for discussion of goblins, norkers, hobgoblins, goblyns, calibans, and other orc/goblin type humanoids in the Demiplane of Dread.

I'll kick off with some questions.

Which ones do you include, if any? In which domains do you place them?

Would any of those be allowed as playable races in your campaign? Which rules would you use?

Are they natural beings that reproduce in a normal fashion, or something weirder? Fairies? Mutants? Cursed humans or demihumans?

In Ravenloft, I generally stick to a rule of thumb for all non-humans: they should only exist if there's good reason for them to do so. This is especially true for the goblinoids, but I apply it to monsters, undead, etc. Nothing in a Ravenloft game should be 'random' in the sense that its 'just there'.

Warning, this spoiler contains personal design philosophy:

VIEW CONTENT:

There are basically 3 reasons to have something present:

-Setting: it fits the theme/style/story/etc of the domain. There are werewolves in Verbrek and pretty much any undead can be found in Darkon but not vice versa. You don't find a lot of elves in the Core (Sithicus has a lot, you can find some in Darkon and Falkovnia and that should be about it) because those are the only places where they serve the setting (as part of Soth's curse, as part of its theme as a 'traditional' D&D fantasy setting, and as slaves in its so-so racism allegory, respectively).

-Culturally appropriate: it fits the setting/culture of the domain. Rokushima Taiyoo is based on Japanese culture. So even if they don't specifically tie into the overall theme of the domain directly, almost anything from Japanese myths and culture could make an appearance here, such as a kappa.

-Campaign story: if it doesn't fit the domain itself in some way, then it should fit the story you are telling in your campaign. A vampire can make an appearance in any domain if you're players have been chasing it across the demiplane for months.

The canon core domains don't really provide many places for goblinoids to exist so that they fit the domains, though there some other domains that have been designed with them in mind. Plus, the 'normal' D&D goblins and orcs aren't super great for horror that you couldn't get with humans, frankly. But there are definitely places for both.

I've always kind of liked the use of 'goblyns' in the Feast of Goblyns as a perfect example of how to 'modify' such a race to work well in Ravenloft, and there are definitely ways to incorporate other goblinoid races in similar manners to play on horror themes. In 90% of domains, if I included them I'd do something like this. Middle Earth's original orcs also work here: they were created by taking and magically twisting and torturing elves to make a new race of warriors. You could honestly use that as-is in Darkon: have the PCs sent to investigate an elven village that's been petitioning Azalin for help and have them stumble upon some mad mage creating orcs this way.

In these cases I would never make these races playable, or even regular encounters. They would mostly be one-off types of encounters with a 'singular' source or origin. If the goblinoids themselves are horrible, I don't really see how you can make them PC-playable. The only reason I keep goblyns as a permanent feature are b/c I have kept the domain of Daglan around, and part of Daglan's curse includes outbreaks of goblyns, which he (mistakenly) thinks are caused by the reappearance of the Crown of Souls (which was actually destroyed when he was freed from it).

That said, if the horror is solely in the transformation and not present in the creature itself, maybe. Ie, the broken ones made in G'henna are, IIRC, still mentally themselves and not mindless or brainwashed monsters. Similarly, perhaps, is L'Morai and its...whole thing.

But there can be places where these races exist in their 'normal' D&D forms, and how they work there really depends on the domain: they could be the main population or they could be part of some 'outside' threat to the 'normal' inhabitants, etc. They may or may not be evil, and all of that determines how I approach them. From memory I have one domain with an established orc population (they are evil, basically normal D&D orcs), one with hobgoblins (they are basically a normal non-evil agrarian society), and one with gnolls (very primitive, but otherwise standard D&D gnolls). I also have 2 with halflings, 2 with dwarves, and 3 or 4 with elves as large or significant portions of the population.

Overall, for a Ravenloft campaign, I dissuade players from playing non-humans (regardless if the PCs are 'native' or 'outsiders') unless they understand all the baggage that will come with it (spoiler: the default reaction of 90% of people is going to be somewhere between outright hostile to terrified).

[Mistmaster]

This is a thread for discussion of goblins, norkers, hobgoblins, goblyns, calibans, and other orc/goblin type humanoids in the Demiplane of Dread.

I'll kick off with some questions.

Which ones do you include, if any? In which domains do you place them?

Would any of those be allowed as playable races in your campaign? Which rules would you use?

Are they natural beings that reproduce in a normal fashion, or something weirder? Fairies? Mutants? Cursed humans or demihumans?

In Ravenloft, I generally stick to a rule of thumb for all non-humans: they should only exist if there's good reason for them to do so. This is especially true for the goblinoids, but I apply it to monsters, undead, etc. Nothing in a Ravenloft game should be 'random' in the sense that its 'just there'.

Warning, this spoiler contains personal design philosophy:

VIEW CONTENT:

There are basically 3 reasons to have something present:

-Setting: it fits the theme/style/story/etc of the domain. There are werewolves in Verbrek and pretty much any undead can be found in Darkon but not vice versa. You don't find a lot of elves in the Core (Sithicus has a lot, you can find some in Darkon and Falkovnia and that should be about it) because those are the only places where they serve the setting (as part of Soth's curse, as part of its theme as a 'traditional' D&D fantasy setting, and as slaves in its so-so racism allegory, respectively).

-Culturally appropriate: it fits the setting/culture of the domain. Rokushima Taiyoo is based on Japanese culture. So even if they don't specifically tie into the overall theme of the domain directly, almost anything from Japanese myths and culture could make an appearance here, such as a kappa.

-Campaign story: if it doesn't fit the domain itself in some way, then it should fit the story you are telling in your campaign. A vampire can make an appearance in any domain if you're players have been chasing it across the demiplane for months.

The canon core domains don't really provide many places for goblinoids to exist so that they fit the domains, though there some other domains that have been designed with them in mind. Plus, the 'normal' D&D goblins and orcs aren't super great for horror that you couldn't get with humans, frankly. But there are definitely places for both.

I've always kind of liked the use of 'goblyns' in the Feast of Goblyns as a perfect example of how to 'modify' such a race to work well in Ravenloft, and there are definitely ways to incorporate other goblinoid races in similar manners to play on horror themes. In 90% of domains, if I included them I'd do something like this. Middle Earth's original orcs also work here: they were created by taking and magically twisting and torturing elves to make a new race of warriors. You could honestly use that as-is in Darkon: have the PCs sent to investigate an elven village that's been petitioning Azalin for help and have them stumble upon some mad mage creating orcs this way.

In these cases I would never make these races playable, or even regular encounters. They would mostly be one-off types of encounters with a 'singular' source or origin. If the goblinoids themselves are horrible, I don't really see how you can make them PC-playable. The only reason I keep goblyns as a permanent feature are b/c I have kept the domain of Daglan around, and part of Daglan's curse includes outbreaks of goblyns, which he (mistakenly) thinks are caused by the reappearance of the Crown of Souls (which was actually destroyed when he was freed from it).

That said, if the horror is solely in the transformation and not present in the creature itself, maybe. Ie, the broken ones made in G'henna are, IIRC, still mentally themselves and not mindless or brainwashed monsters. Similarly, perhaps, is L'Morai and its...whole thing.

But there can be places where these races exist in their 'normal' D&D forms, and how they work there really depends on the domain: they could be the main population or they could be part of some 'outside' threat to the 'normal' inhabitants, etc. They may or may not be evil, and all of that determines how I approach them. From memory I have one domain with an established orc population (they are evil, basically normal D&D orcs), one with hobgoblins (they are basically a normal non-evil agrarian society), and one with gnolls (very primitive, but otherwise standard D&D gnolls). I also have 2 with halflings, 2 with dwarves, and 3 or 4 with elves as large or significant portions of the population.

Overall, for a Ravenloft campaign, I dissuade players from playing non-humans (regardless if the PCs are 'native' or 'outsiders') unless they understand all the baggage that will come with it (spoiler: the default reaction of 90% of people is going to be somewhere between outright hostile to terrified).

Well, of course all depends on the domain; Orcs in My Core come from Tepest, Goblinoids from there and Forlorn; as for reaction, again it depends; In Darkon and in Zeindost (Qtr 23 ) fot example people are way more open minded.

[Cromstar]

Well, of course all depends on the domain; Orcs in My Core come from Tepest, Goblinoids from there and Forlorn; as for reaction, again it depends; In Darkon and in Zeindost (Qtr 23 ) fot example people are way more open minded.

That's why I specified canon domains, because obviously any domain can be changed to incorporate things how we want. I wanted to provide a common frame of reference.

[ewancummins]

RE orcs as twisted elves:

I've considered entirely replacing the drow with orcs.

Arak as an Ork domain?

The only problem with this is Tristessa, but it wouldn't be hard to alter her background.

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Other orc/goblinoid ideas:


Orcs as pig-men created by Markov (based on discussion in another thread here on FoS), products of his early experiments before he learned to create true Broken Ones.

Kobolds in Dementlieu were once the household and village/field gods of the folk, before the Light of Reason prevailed. Now the forsaken gods have grown evil and twisted, bereft of all but a sliver of their ancient supernatural power (spellcasting kobolds manifest that power).

[ewancummins]

RAVENLOFT 2 SPOILER

VIEW CONTENT:

There are some orc pirate/smuggler types hanging out along the cliffs and coastal caves near Mordentshire. Presumably "the adventurers" killed them off. But maybe not?

[brilliantlight]

My Forlorn, if you remember it is a bit different.http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10417

Rereading it , the history and culture is kind of vague or perhaps underdeveloped. I am not sure how the humans, the druids, the fey and the vampyres fit together in the big picture. How do they relate to each other and what differences, if any, do they have in their cultures? What, exactly, does Tristan want to fix in his domain? It isn't bad but I think a bit underdeveloped.