Undead Senses and Emotions

[High Priest Mikhal]

A player in my group is studying psychology and had interesting questions about what the undead feel both physically and emotionally. Several canon books like Libris Mortis and Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead discuss both but always either briefly or under very specific circumstances. Even the older VRG books don't really go into any great detail except VRG to Vampires regarding how they feel as time passes.

So I'm posting some of their questions here.
What sort of senses do the undead retain? Why do they have or not have certain senses?
Do intelligent undead feel pain? If not, why not and wouldn't that be a part of their complete lack of empathy for the living?
What sorts of emotions do they have? Are they all negative or do they have the capacity to feel positive emotions? If they can feel only negative emotions, why?

I really don't want to give them pat answers without some sort of explanation. For that matter, I've read so many contradictory ideas even in "canon" sources that I'm not sure what's true and what's not anymore.

[Epically]

Do intelligent undead feel pain? If not, why not and wouldn't that be a part of their complete lack of empathy for the living?

I would say they wouldn't feel physical pain(non magical). Part of their undead nature is that their central nervous system is dead. No pain could even be considered a luxury which certainly explains why most vampires/liches think they're better than the living.

[Five]

Interesting topic(s).

Pain. Hmm. Mortal pain, maybe not. But I like to think that they feel some other form of pain when they are confronted with positive/holy energy. But...maybe not.

All depends on your theatrics I spose.

Without warning, and in an instant, the still-rising sun begins to violently burn and unravel whatever vile power it is that holds its physical form together. Angrily, hungerly, it flays the mockery of humanity from its very bones, strip by bloody strip. The creature screams, and in such a monstrous tone that you find yourself clutching your ears and beginning to swoon. Yet despite this overwhelming feeling, a thought slips into your head: is that a scream of primal pain, or is it a scream of unholy defiance?

These are loaded questions...!

[Resonant Curse]

There are a number of the novels written with undead as the main characters for Ravenloft that you could look at.Knight of the Black Rose, Spectre of the Black Rose, the I, Strahd books, Vampire of the Mists.

[High Priest Mikhal]

The central nervous system is supposedly replaced with some sort of supernatural matrix composed of negative energy if I've read my sources correctly. Otherwise the undead wouldn't be able to move. I can see that dulling certain senses or sensitivity to pain in corporeal undead. The Ghostwalk book supposes that materialized ghosts--albeit not the undead type--do have all five senses but taste, touch, and smell are considerably dulled. Which is important because ghosts in that setting usually require some specific stimulation daily to avoid succumbing to a desire to travel to the True Afterlife.

I would agree that the usual pain that mortals deal with is limited for corporeal undead with an intellect score. Getting cut or bludgeoned is probably just an inconvenience sense-wise, as would environmental damage from climates other than extreme heat or cold (that's actually covered in Libris Mortis). Damage from things like acid, electricity, magical cold, fire, and whatnot would likely cause an instinctual repulsion but not the kind of pain a mortal feels. Unless they have resistance and the damage doesn't exceed it, immunity, or absorption (like the bleakborn from Libris Mortis do with fire).

Positive energy I've always ruled causes extreme pain for corporeal undead. It literally cancels out the very force animating their forms and burns their necrotic flesh more than any acid or fire. Which makes clerics--and paladins--who take the Destroy Undead ability from Return to Castle Ravenloft in lieu of Turn Undead especially hated and feared by the undead that know their ability. As well as classes that can create a positive energy burst (hunters of the dead, illumine souls, radiant servants). Spells like bolt of glory and disrupt undead that use positive energy likewise cause severe pain.

Which, again, all ties into how this affects them psychologically. There are real life cases of people will dulled senses of touch developing superiority complexes because they lose some empathy for people who feel pain where they wouldn't be discomfited. Yet when they do feel pain they almost can't handle it. It's a trade-off of not feeling as much pain but also losing some of their ability to deal with it when they do. I can actually see the undead overreacting to truly painful attacks, though how they react really depends on the individual and the circumstances.

Then there's the other side of pain: pleasure. A creature that can't fully feel pain would logically lose the ability to fully feel pleasurable sensations as well. I think of a creature who once enjoyed the feel of a soft quilt while alive losing their composure when they don't feel anything from it in undeath. This begs another question.

What things bring pleasure to the undead and why? Besides feeding for the hungry dead or fulfilling a Craving for the restless dead?

[Five]

What things bring pleasure to the undead and why? Besides feeding for the hungry dead or fulfilling a Craving for the restless dead?

While I would never make a hard rule at the table (leaving such things as IC theories/speculations just to keep the light from pushing back too many shadows), I would say episodic memory would be a factor for some intelligent undead. They don't actually feel emotions any longer, but they do remember and sometimes "crave' (to recreate) them. Especially those that may carry subconscious doubt or, guilt (thought/remembrance) as to their dark transformation. They refuse to admit to themselves that they have crossed over entirely into another "realm", away from Humanity; all that they were/are, and all that they hold/held dear. Thus they carry on re-creating emotions and whatnot of their past lives, for whatever reason(s).

Example: Strahd and his "love" for Tatyana. It's fulfillment, closure; the want to possess, and the need to justify his actions (Past and Present, his Pact, etc) that drives him now. It was never love, as the emotion is long-lost on him (and probably was even during his life). She is a memory of a high point in his life/existence. She is, symbolically, his connection to his humanity. He just fools himself into thinking it "eternal love". Essentially he is a prisoner of himself/his ego (refusing to let go of his humanity/Past, and accept the vampire/Present). IMO. Hell, I'd even put it out there that Tatyana has been dead since the day of her wedding. Sightings of her in RL are simply creations of Strahd's memory, or, manifestations of his refusal to accept himself (his part of the Pact).

Such memories, though they may be recreations, may still instill in the creature a response that is simply another memory. Melancholy, etc. This too is not a real emotion, but it's effects are. Powers of the mind sort of thing. Actors crying, professional mourners, etc. The creature thinking about that quilt it took comfort in during its past life is not sad or happy, they're just thinking about being sad or happy. They might appear to be sad or happy (empathy and situational awareness aren't always allies!), but they're just...lost in thought. Facial features may be reflexive with the appropriate once emotion as well, with the more social of the intelligent undead (who still practice such things to maintain their masquerade).

Now, for those that have fully embraced their monstrous transformation, I would say they are by and large immune to such memory recall. They simply don't care. Others have "lived" too long; their minds are fractured; they retrained their minds to such a degree that they are in all ways superior to or far beyond their original evolutionary demarcation, etc.

Like I said, I set nothing in stone when it comes to this sort of stuff. I like to play that stuff out in-game if the PCs are so inclined to put the effort in. So anything I say in this thread is, at best, half-hearted. I'll go where the story goes really. Like I said, I find topics like this really interesting. I'll throw out thoughts as brain food, but I may contradict the next post down...

Edited a few times to finish/round out thoughts

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

What sort of senses do the undead retain? Why do they have or not have certain senses?

There is a very specific example of a difference in sense concerning the lich in Ravenloft. According to the RLPHB on page 208: "In the eyes of a lich, it is as if neither darkness nor light exists." Considering how alien vision such as this must be, a lich would have a lot of difficulty relating to mortals who see in a fundamentally different way. Some liches may even miss the world as it was and become quite jealous.

[Mistmaster]

Think about be deprived of the sense of taste, and never be able to taste coffee again, which was your only pleasure in life ( except from killing) (Kudos ifyou catch the reference.)

[High Priest Mikhal]

You folks have given me some things to think about.

I hesitate to rule that the undead only feel echoes of emotions they felt in life. Beings that static really don't match up to real world lore or ideas presented in numerous D&D supplements. I really don't like the idea even in Vampire games because it really detracts from the Curse. Undeath is supposed to be a miserable state of existence, but even misery stops hurting when it becomes commonplace. Echoes eventually become distant until they're easily ignored. At that point a lot of the pain is gone. As is so much of the potential to portray undeath as something more than just a state to endure until apathy washes away everything.

Since corporeal undead--other than ghosts who only have a corporeal form--are still somewhat beholden to basic logic regarding their senses, it makes sense to rule that certain organs are needed for certain things. A skeletal undead being with no flesh likely has no sense of touch. No nose, no sense of smell. No tongue, no sense of taste. Hearing and sight seem to be the exceptions unless the undead being is specifically stated as not having one or the other.

An undead being's senses of touch, taste, and smell are usually described as being dulled even if they're in a pristine state of preservation. I would ascribe this to a combination of their bodies being...well, dead, as well as the influence of negative energy which is entropy incarnate. It also explains why the undead aren't as fazed by injuries that would incapacitate the living. That's also why I feel non-mindless undead would react particularly strongly to positive energy attacks; they grow accustomed to not feeling much pain and aren't as prepared for it when they do feel it. This applies equally to ethereal and incorporeal undead who face foes that exist on the same plane/state of existence as themselves or use attacks that don't miss.

Whatever the undead feel emotionally would vary greatly depending on what they are. A morhg, being borne of a serial killer who never repented, likely only feels darker emotions like hate, anger, and sadistic glee when it kills. Everything the hungry dead feel would be filtered through their endless need to feed. A ghost would be greatly influenced by the emotions it felt when it became such.

Exceptions do seem to exist. Vampires, most notably, seem to be much more "human" in what they still feel physically and emotionally. Vampires as sexual beings dates back centuries if the legends of dhampir are any indication. The vorlog is an example of when a vampire desires an equal strongly enough to risk true death but the process is interrupted. Of all the undead, true vampires are consistently portrayed as being closer to the living than other undead. All filtered through the vampire's twisted views, of course. I'm not even going to try and list the possibilities of how different strains vary in this regard.

[Manofevil]

What about cases on internal pain, like muscle aches, stomach cramps, and other instances as the now dead body decays?

[Five]

Undeath is supposed to be a miserable state of existence, but even misery stops hurting when it becomes commonplace. Echoes eventually become distant until they're easily ignored. At that point a lot of the pain is gone. As is so much of the potential to portray undeath as something more than just a state to endure until apathy washes away everything.

I like to imagine the idea of being stuck with your memories, haunted by them, yet not being able to fully form them as you know you once did (or so you think to yourself now, given the scene playing in your head); the inability to empathise with yourself and the memories that you know are yours but are now just dull pictures and hit-or-miss word associations in your mind...I'd say that would be pure torture to somebody who once lived the experiences.

Eventually the echoes will fade. The inability to comprehend, to put into context all that you were, would be maddening/intolerable. Apathy/disassociation will set in. Survival instinct kicks in (it has to; you already tried killing yourself a hundred times to end this sick game...and failed each and every time!). New base instincts ignite and it's something that makes sense (finally. It's been such a long time since you could say that!). You are what you are; you might as well revel in it. Just don't let anybody remind you of your Past. That would be...bad.

Of course, some would "tolerate" better than others. Some would observe, "steal", and maybe even attempt to re-live/flesh out their own memories/past lives through the emotions of those targeted by them. It would be (quite twisted) being faced with a undead creature that knows way too much about you and is in reality an "emotional Frankenstein" made up in part of pieces of your life and experiences!

Point is, there's a case that can be made for every clue. Or some such thing.

That said, I am following what you're saying...

[Five]

What about cases on internal pain, like muscle aches, stomach cramps, and other instances as the now dead body decays?

Continue...

[High Priest Mikhal]

I like to imagine the idea of being stuck with your memories, haunted by them, yet not being able to fully form them as you know you once did (or so you think to yourself now, given the scene playing in your head); the inability to empathise with yourself and the memories that you know are yours but are now just dull pictures and hit-or-miss word associations in your mind...I'd say that would be pure torture to somebody who once lived the experiences.

Okay, that makes more sense. And being haunted by memories is something I know firsthand. It is maddening because the mind has no defenses against itself.

The aches and pains of a decaying body is something I started exploring fairly early in The Lost Journals over in the Fan Fiction section but I've put off getting back into. I really want to get those interrogations going again. Thanks for the reminder, Manofevil.

[Five]

Vampires, most notably, seem to be much more "human" in what they still feel physically and emotionally. Vampires as sexual beings dates back centuries if the legends of dhampir are any indication.

Are they sexual beings though, or are they individuals that have returned after death to impose their will on their former loved ones? The act of sex may very well be intellectual (domination). "I never said you could move on with your life." or, "You are then, now, and forever mine."

As to the dhampir, that might be a not so simple miscalculation on the vampire's part; Nature's way of (sometimes) "righting" such an abominable act. Maybe only the very recently returned are capable of reproduction; a "one-off", so to speak...

Of all the undead, true vampires are consistently portrayed as being closer to the living than other undead.

This may be because, of all the undead, the vampire is the only one (?) that still maintains the image of its mortal self. Which may help explain why mortals often make the grave error of attributing these monsters with human sensibilities such as sexuality, emotions, etc. If you don't see the monster your loved one has become, if you only see your returned loved one (in a placid state), then what reason do you have for believing otherwise? The vampire's charm ability (for those that possess it) will probably dull all other logic-based inquiries.

As to people not intimate with the past life of the vampire in question, well, people are capable of all sorts of weird shit. If bestiality is a thing then a one-way attraction to a very attractive (appearing) humanoid monster ain't no real thing. And it's probably easier for that queer mind to frame the object of their desire in human terms...?

All sorts man. All sorts. haha

[Mistmaster]

Not all undead are monsters, thought.