4Edition. Do you like it?

Mortavius · Post by **Mortavius** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:49 pm

Not sure I follow what you mean Jester; as I said, all the module examples I have seen for skill challenges where they can stop a fight have the players receiving the same XP from defeating the monsters as the skill challenge. I'm not looking at the DM's Guide though, so if you're referring to that, then you may very well be correct. Personally, I like the idea of making the challenge worth the same XP as a combat encounter of the same level.

And it is very true, that if you don't have a fight set up for failure of the challenge, then the PC's potentially get nothing from the challenge if they fail.

I found your comment about it being easier to flub the skill challenge and face the monster to be humerous however. To say that there are fewer penalties, when one of the penalties is *the death of a character or the entire party fighting a monster* I think is a broad understatement.

You are correct that the skill challenges assume a party of 5 players...but so does everything else in 4E. Like in 3E, everything assumed a party of 4 players. And just like it says in the books, if your party is bigger or smaller, you have to adjust the challenge to account for the extra players. Not that I find that having more people in a skill challenge makes it any easier; although it does give them a bigger pool of skills to work with.

You have an interesting opinion on the tenant of not hinging plot advancement on a skill challenge. The only thing I can suggest is of course to change it in your game. I always viewed it in a positive light, as it was the designers way of saying that if the PC's got some bad rolls, don't punish them severely. This same example cannot be applied to combat, because combat also has clear choices and decisions made by the players, not just bad rolls. (And as any long-term DM knows, it's usually okay to flub some rolls in the PC's favor if they are trying their best but the dice are failing them.)

Igor the Henchman · Post by **Igor the Henchman** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:56 am

Ad nauseam. I don't think this disagreement will ever get settled. Some people just don't like the game. Some just do.

Jester of the FoS · Post by **Jester of the FoS** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:37 am

Mortavius wrote:I found your comment about it being easier to flub the skill challenge and face the monster to be humerous however. To say that there are fewer penalties, when one of the penalties is *the death of a character or the entire party fighting a monster* I think is a broad understatement.

At most, a skill challenge is going to award experience equal to level+1. An average to easy fight.
If they're dying from standard fights they have larger problems.

For a harder fight, one where death might become a factor, the skill challenge has to be significantly higher level, so you're just setting them up for failure.

Mortavius · Post by **Mortavius** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:41 am

Igor the Henchman wrote:Ad nauseam. I don't think this disagreement will ever get settled. Some people just don't like the game. Some just do.

Very true Igor, but I for one, am not trying to change Jester's opinion on the game. That would be kind of silly; trying to change the opinion of someone I've never met in real life. It's hard enough trying to change the opinions of the people around let alone avatars on a forum!

No, for me, this is just an interesting discussion on the forums about the game system. I don't know if Jester feels the same way, but I would hazard he does, because he's on page seven with me now...

alhoon · Post by **alhoon** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:31 pm

Although you're right Igor, this is a tread about what we like/don't like in 4th edition. So such discussion has a meaning.

It's not about trying to figure which edition is best.

Jester of the FoS · Post by **Jester of the FoS** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:34 am

On an unrelated note, I assume people heard of the (now closed) open call for writers for Goodman Game's Book of Rituals.
http://www.goodman-games.com/bookofritualsopencall.html

It's a big book of rituals, to be published this fall, and at this point it looks like my work is included in it.
Just to build some early buzz.

Mortavius · Post by **Mortavius** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:49 am

That's awesome Jester! Wish I'd known about it...I would have spent some time seeing if I could think up anything.

Gonzoron of the FoS · Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:49 am

congrats, Jester!

HuManBing · Post by **HuManBing** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:22 pm

I voted. It was a while ago and I can't remember which option I voted for. Is there a way for a poster to find out what they voted for post facto?

Gonzoron of the FoS · Post by **Gonzoron of the FoS** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:12 pm

Nope... for kicks, I went to see if even the Admin could tell who voted for what, but phpbb doesn't keep that information, it seems. It just records that you voted (So you can't vote twice) and how many people have voted for each option. So when you vote, it checks off that you voted, and ups the count on the option you voted for, then forgets which one it was, so even unscrupulous Admins can't see or change your vote... sorry...

HuManBing · Post by **HuManBing** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:10 pm

Hmm, that's interesting. I think vBulletin software does show which option the user voted for, by italicizing it.

No harm done, just an idle question on my part.

alhoon · Post by **alhoon** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:10 pm

Congratulations Jester! It's good for the book, more than good for you in my opinion.

Anyway, so far 68% like 3rd edition more than 4th. And 58% don't like it.

HuManBing · Post by **HuManBing** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:15 pm

Yes, although to be fair the most popular single response is the one naming 4E as better than all other editions.

Zettaijin · Post by **Zettaijin** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:55 pm

And there are more negative choices than positive ones...

GreyPumpkin · Post by **GreyPumpkin** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:06 pm

After trying it out, off and on, for about a year now, I have to say I am not a fan of 4th edition. It is a finely structured game for what it does, but what it shoots for is just not what I go for when I want to run/play a game. The best thing I can say about it is that from a DM standpoint it is very easy to prep for.
To me the game has one main fault I can't get around. It feels too contrived to me maybe, like I'm constantly aware of the game part of it rather loosing oneself in the gaming experience, if that makes any sense.
When in involved in a combat I rather be immersed in what my character, or if I'm DMing, the monsters/opponents would be doing in that situation. Instead with 4e it's more about counting squares and figuring out if now is the time to use that daily power. And the game system seems to enforce that approach - at its heart 4e is a strategic wargame, that you can also role play with.
Yes, there was some this in 3.X, and even in earlier, but in 4e it is much more pervasive.

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4Edition. Do you like it?

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