Souragne project

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Rotipher of the FoS
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

TwiceBorn wrote:In 2nd ed., I thought it was implied that Anton Misroi and the Lord of the Dead were one and the same. Now, DT&DL indicates that they are different beings. I think the relationship between the two should be explored in the DM's section of the gaz.
My guess is that Misroi's official status, amongst those in-the-know, is as the corporeal "avatar" of the loa Lord of the Dead, much like how a reigning pharaoh in ancient Egypt was considered a stand-in for the sun god. From a voodan perspective, he'd effectively be permanently "riden" (possessed) by that loa, although Souragne's been a domain long enough that the distinction between the two has been forgotten by most of the population: it'd probably require a Knowledge (religion) check for a trained voodan-adherent (like Chicken Bone) to recognize Misroi as anything less than the loa of the dead, incarnate.

In reality, OTOH, Misroi's darklord status probably means he's not a true avatar of the Lord of the Dead; his known background suggests it's a combination of arcane necromancy and the DPs, rather than the loa, from which his power comes. The zombie lord's true relationship with the death-loa might even be an adversarial one, like Arijani's relationship with Ravana: the darklord may have usurped the Lord of the Dead's place in Souragnian theology, unbalancing the voodan pantheon (in which the LotD used to be an equal and accepted, albeit intimidating, member) and forcing the Maiden and lesser loa (which are more like fey than deities) into the role of an outgunned opposition. But he'd keep the truth that he's not really an incarnate loa a secret from mortal voodan-adherents, as being regarded as the rightful "Lord of the Dead" is such a useful intimidation-tactic.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

The Giamarga wrote:The Boccoru Kit from Book of Sorrows does mention those Loa. pecifically that Anton Misroi is the loa Lord of the Dead, The Maiden of the Swamp is the loa of life. I like the idea tha the loa are real in the flesh albeit fantastic creatures. It seems to gel with D&D fantasy and gives Souragnean Voodoun it's own twist. Now that doesn't mean that they should be talking animals from Alice in Wonderland a la the the loa of foxes: Bushytails. :shock: (also from the boccoru article) Why is there a loa of foxes in the first place? Or of rabbits?Better call them loa of cleverness and cowardice, which can take those forms somehow. These loa are something akin to Saints and the spellcasting is granted by God/the gods/the DPs/whatever.
I think it'd be a good idea to draw a distinction between loa and deities, here. While IRL voudou loa are deities in the conventional, polytheistic sense, the Voodan game-loa could be more like fey: immortal nature-spirits rather than outsiders, as already exemplified by the Maiden (a dryad). A voodan practitioner's patron loa isn't really the source of his or her magic -- spells of voodan, like the magic of druids and rangers who aren't dedicated to a specific god, come from Nature as a collective force -- but rather, an entity to which the practitioner feels a close spiritual link, and emulates when engaging in magical rituals. It's a bit like totems in the Shadowrun game.

This would explain how the Maiden of the Swamp can be both a patron loa for spellcasters (in her philosophical-concept sense) and a physical being: a dryad. It'd also mean that, while Anton Misroi would be revered as a physical avatar of the Lord of the Dead, by voodan-practitioners with that patron loa, he doesn't actually choose whether or not they can receive spells or have the game-statistics of a deity. And it would leave a place for weak (and even silly) loa -- like the ones seen as captives in the "Dance of the Dead" novel -- in the Voodan pantheon: while some loa are powerful and sober enough to be spiritual patrons/totems for spellcasters, others are just plain old-fashioned fey. A loa of rabbits who wears a waistcoat may not make sense if he's a deity, but if he'd a pooka a la "Harvey", Bouki is consistent with fey folklore.
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

i liked what Rotipher had to say - loa as sort of an extension of a nature religion, an animist faith where potentially everythign has a spirit. So, you might see "shamans" and which doctors as more like druids than clerics...

Isn';t there a shaman class somewhere... in the complete divie or something? Or maybe even an adapted shugenga, with a specific "school" of study which has everything to do with whatever loa he/she holds sacred? (With the accepted choice being necromantic/LotD?)

The again, you could make a very decent prestige class built around this "grey zone" kind of status the loa have.
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Post by Joël of the FoS »

Joël of the Fraternity wrote:Also, I'm going to provide the FoS approved directions for things discussed here (slaves? size? etc.)

This list will also make clear what is still to be written in the Gaz.

Expect this list during the weekend, tomorrow if I'm lucky.

Joël
This text is delayed a bit since I'm out of town today and Tuesday. Expect it on Wednesday!

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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

TwiceBorn wrote:Just one of the many reasons why I didn't like "Dance of the Dead." I didn't like Christie Golden's depiction of the loas... they looked like they would fit better in Alice in Wonderland than in a gothic setting. I really hope we don't include them (or much of anything else from that book) into the gaz.
I think you'll be out of luck on that one. The book is pretty well loved by many RL fans. It's probably the biggest source of canon info on the culture and society of Sourange. I would hope (and assume) it will be a big influence on the gaz.
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Post by The Giamarga »

Boccaccio Barbarossa wrote:i liked what Rotipher had to say - loa as sort of an extension of a nature religion, an animist faith where potentially everythign has a spirit. So, you might see "shamans" and which doctors as more like druids than clerics...

Isn';t there a shaman class somewhere... in the complete divie or something? Or maybe even an adapted shugenga, with a specific "school" of study which has everything to do with whatever loa he/she holds sacred? (With the accepted choice being necromantic/LotD?)

The again, you could make a very decent prestige class built around this "grey zone" kind of status the loa have.
There's the Shaman accessory for 2E which presented a variant priest class. In 3E we have the Spirit Shaman base class from Complete Arcane, though i'm not sure we need it. I see Souragne having Voudans/Houngans(whatever you call the Voodoo priests) on the one side and regular clerics of Ezra on the other. The Voudoun class should have a bit shamanism, but I don't see it for the contrasting main religion which in the real world would have been Christianity. Shaman Brucian from NotWD should be Brother Brucian or Father Brucian or Toret Brucian imho and a Cleric of Ezra.
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

The Giamarga wrote:There's the Shaman accessory for 2E which presented a variant priest class. In 3E we have the Spirit Shaman base class from Complete Arcane, though i'm not sure we need it. I see Souragne having Voudans/Houngans(whatever you call the Voodoo priests) on the one side and regular clerics of Ezra on the other. The Voudoun class should have a bit shamanism, but I don't see it for the contrasting main religion which in the real world would have been Christianity. Shaman Brucian from NotWD should be Brother Brucian or Father Brucian or Toret Brucian imho and a Cleric of Ezra.
Besides - we can always use the Adept NPC class, which works out really well for things like this.

If you go cleric, though, you nkow there needs to be a new domain: "Loa". And that I'm looking forward to. :misori:
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

So does this discussion of how to portray voodan-based divine casters mean that nobody liked the Voodan class, as it's presented in DT&DL...?
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Post by The Giamarga »

Well I for one havn't seen it yet. Need to get DT&DL first...

Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine has some interesting things though: Druid spells, a spirit guide, a totem (need to make some loa totems though), connection to fey. Probably much better than the adept. Druid spells also fit with the Maiden and Larissa Snowmane's stats from CotM.
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

Well, I conceed to being somewhat less well-read in terms of Ravenloft produucts (canon and not so canon) it seems - I haven;t read the classes before... and I would be hard pressed to remember stats a lot of the time. :(

But, for questions of "feeling", I guess I feel I'm right up there.

So, in this case, I guess i'll let more knowledgeable and capable peopel decide. My gut feeling, though, is that cleric is too... western? I don;t know if that's the word, but whatever.

As for the voodan class ... which product is DT&DL? (I'm normally pretty good with this stuff, but... it escpates me right now...)
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Post by The Giamarga »

Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends from Sword&Sorcery/Arthaus/Whitewolf.

The western feel is exactly what I intended. The cleric is to represent the official church priest (a catholic in the real world) and the voodan class is for the ...well voodoo hedge priests. (see also the earlier parts of this thread where religion is discussed)
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Post by The Giamarga »

In the submission guidelines I read that you already have a description for Anton Misroi. Does this include stats? If yes can you give a basic direction? I.e. male human Zombielord AriXX/NecroXX and/or how you modelled the Dance of the Dead ability?
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Post by Boccaccio Barbarossa »

The Giamarga wrote:Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends from Sword&Sorcery/Arthaus/Whitewolf.

The western feel is exactly what I intended. The cleric is to represent the official church priest (a catholic in the real world) and the voodan class is for the ...well voodoo hedge priests. (see also the earlier parts of this thread where religion is discussed)
Cool. I'll try to get my hands on that and take a look at it! (or if anyone would care to share the info on the class? It may be relevant to my submission... :misori:

I totally agree that cleric goes with the Official clergy vs. the voodan hedge priest/shaman/witch doctor. So, i guess we were saying the same thing...
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Post by Joël of the FoS »

The Giamarga wrote:In the submission guidelines I read that you already have a description for Anton Misroi. Does this include stats? If yes can you give a basic direction? I.e. male human Zombielord AriXX/NecroXX and/or how you modelled the Dance of the Dead ability?
This isn't definitively set for the moment. Picture him with Ari levels and Sorcerer-like power in necromancy. He can cast any necromantic spell by the ususla method as well as via dance (the Dance of the Dead).

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Post by Mortavius »

Here's a question for you guys:

What if I was going to write about an NPC previously published in 2E, but was going to completely re-work the stats (for specific reasons, which I can't relate here without letting info slip)? Would I be able to provide completely new stats for this NPC?
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