Comments on the 4th Ed fact thread

[HuManBing]

I was looking back at this thread (pages 1-25) with Nostalgia. I remember 3 1/2 years ago

What?!? You bumped a three year old thread?

I would never do that! What's wrong with you etc.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Alhoon, coming from you, this speaks volumes about the system. As recently as last summer you were still telling me it was more than WoW meets Pen-n-paper. You seemed like a real champion of the edition. If nothing else you seem to understand it very well, which is more than I can say for most of its detractors, including myself.

My stance on ruleset still hasn't changed: as long as it is written in a language I can understand, I can use it. Nuts and Bolts of the system are meaningless compared to a good story. I know that no matter what edition the game is being produced in, we will still meet here to discuss it. Ravenloft forever!

[alhoon]

Alhoon, coming from you, this speaks volumes about the system. As recently as last summer you were still telling me it was more than WoW meets Pen-n-paper. You seemed like a real champion of the edition. If nothing else you seem to understand it very well, which is more than I can say for most of its detractors, including myself.

My stance on ruleset still hasn't changed: as long as it is written in a language I can understand, I can use it. Nuts and Bolts of the system are meaningless compared to a good story. I know that no matter what edition the game is being produced in, we will still meet here to discuss it. Ravenloft forever!

To put things in perspective:
- After getting my hands in the edition, I stopped being a "real champion" of it. Check the thread for my comments. Still I defended it when I think I should and I criticised it when I think I should.
- 3-4 times a week, I play 4th edition, through skype and an online tabletop. Usually for 2 hours except weekends when we play more. As you said, it's the story that counts. You couldn't do that with 3rd edition so effectively, the system is quite more complex to put on an online tabletop and takes more time (and thought).
- 4E feels like a nice tabletop game. Not WoW.
- The rule system is... very simple actually. That was one of the reasons I was disillusioned. It's far simpler than 3rd edition. Have you checked the rules that come for free along with an adventure in WotC site? There is next to nothing more than this ruleset. Except lists with powers, items and feats.

[Strahdsbuddy]

That's a lot of gaming in a week; I'm jealous! I've always run a low-magic, low-combat, heavy role playing game, so I'm probably not as familiar even with 3rd edition rules as most of us are...that probably makes me a crappy DM. I will say that creating DCs on the fly became something of an artform and was the real challenge of keeping the story moving. I've been messing around with an online tabletop (Maptool, suggested by Gonzoron) although have not even begun to implement rules. I would think the simpler the better, like you say. I just never found 3e or pathfinder to be all that complex.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I suppose it depends how much you want the online tabletop to do for you. As Strahdsbuddy said, I use Maptool for 3.5/PF and it works great. (we play about 2-3 hours every week or two.) Some of the more "free-time-blessed" in the group have programmed some macros for rolling commonly used stuff like saves, perception checks, etc, and for gaining/losing HP, but I think it would be fine without it. We still keep our character sheets separately (some actually printed out on paper! old school!) and some even roll their own dice. The tabletop just lets us all see what the maps look like, where the minis are, share handouts, etc. If that's all it did, it would be enough. The rest is just gravy. If the tabletop ran the whole game, then it would feel like WoW.

[alhoon]

Strahd's buddy, 4E doesn't seem to be the best option for you. It can run everything, but it's created with high fantasy, high magic, heavy combat in mind. I'm not even sure 3E is for you to be sincere.

[HuManBing]

Strahd's buddy, 4E doesn't seem to be the best option for you. It can run everything, but it's created with high fantasy, high magic, heavy combat in mind. I'm not even sure 3E is for you to be sincere.

Don't be afraid to try other game systems either. I stuck with DnD for decades because of familiarity, but in the end I had to admit to myself that it just didn't do the things I needed it to.

Spend some time to note down the things you want to be able to do easily in the ruleset. Then go to your local gaming store and flip through the system books.

I did that, and eventually narrowed it down from Exalted, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, RIFTS, TriStat dX, World of Darkness, DnD, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, Amazing Engine, and Star Frontiers to just GURPS.

[Strahdsbuddy]

If i had a gaming group, I'd worry more about it. i am in semi-retirement, though I thought 4E came a little suddenly and was put off mostly by that point. I dragged my feet from 2nd Edition into 3rd also. As HMB says, I use the d20 system mostly out of familiarity, and mostly because my friends have never given a crap about the rules, we've never let them interfere with our games. We are not the most serious bunch. I had a guy who only played occasionally but we had been leveling his druid for him in absentia. During one of his game sessions he says "It says here I can change shape" so I say "Yes, as a druid you can change your shape 3 times a day." He didn't even hesitate: "I want to be a small orange triangle." We didnt get much gaming done that night. If you could point me to the system that best represents geometric polymorphing that'd be great.

In all seriousness, I've read HMB's GURPS conversion thread and I've enjoyed it a great deal. I think it might allow you to do whatever you want. In fact, I think that's the point. As it is, I like playing or DMing a party of experts or rogues with a few fighters for thump; a ton of skills and the imagination of my players is all we ever needed. I ran combat cinematically; only I knew the monster's hp, and I let them throw pawns around all day, but made em work to beat a major villain. Call it cheating if oyu like; it worked for us.

[HuManBing]

"I want to be a small orange triangle." We didnt get much gaming done that night. If you could point me to the system that best represents geometric polymorphing that'd be great.

GURPS can do it. In all seriousness, you'd need to better specify the object's properties, but GURPS can do it.

Check out this thread where the GM is dealing with a PC who wants to play a sapient cloth bag.

[Manofevil]

I love the sapient cloth bag idea. It gives the DM and the other players the right to keep yelling 'AW SHADDAP YA OLD BAG!!'

[Zettaijin]

In keeping with the sentient cloth bag, here is a pro wrestling match featuring a kotatsu (japanese heated table) against a step ladder.



Sorry mods, but that cloth bag idea just warranted it.

[Jester of the FoS]

Looking back, it's interesting to read my early comments, when I was so much more optimistic and weary of 3.5 edition.

[alhoon]

Looking back, it's interesting to read my early comments, when I was so much more optimistic and weary of 3.5 edition.

That.

Alas... 4E is still new. I hope they already work on 5th edition and publish it in 3-4 years or so.

[HuManBing]

Or... you can visit your game store, pull down the sourcebooks of five or six gaming systems, and compare them for yourself. Standard free market practice: if the supplier doesn't meet your specifications, go back to the marketplace and look for another provider who makes a product you DO like.


You can either do what I did with 3.5, and stay wedded to a system that doesn't work because it's conceptually incompatible with what I want, spending hundreds of dollars buying up each last supplement, thinking vainly that "Yes, THIS next supplement will hold the magic-bullet rules tweaks that will make the entire game system totally perfect for me"...

OR you can push those books aside, leave the table, and go checking out the other alternatives out there. DnD is the big player on the block, with something like 95% of the RPG market, but the remaining 5% of games is populated by a surprising range of game systems.

If you're after settings that might work with Ravenloft specifically, try:

World of Darkness (old or new), especially Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, Changeling, Mage
Call of Cthulhu
All Brains Must Be Eaten
Unknown Armies

If you're looking at systems specifically, then these ones might work (but they are barebones systems and you must provide all the fluff)

GURPS
Rolemaster
Tristat dX


(dis?)honorable mention: RIFTS. Claims to be a universal system but you'll have to do a lot of trimming to get it working.

[Jester of the FoS]

Or... you can visit your game store, pull down the sourcebooks of five or six gaming systems, and compare them for yourself. Standard free market practice: if the supplier doesn't meet your specifications, go back to the marketplace and look for another provider who makes a product you DO like.

Which is a little like comparing cars on a lot. You get an idea and impression, but not much else.