Comments/suggestions on Jester's rules (5e)

[alhoon]

I believe gravesight needs to make clear that the scene you watch may call for a horror check, with some bonuses since you're away.

Also, I want to revisit the horror checks: I believe that we need a table with modifiers after all. I understand Jester's point of view and trepidation to implement one, but I believe it's needed. A table is needed to provide guidelines and modifiers because not everything causes the same amount of horror.

The horror of seeing your brother turning to a werewolf is greater than watching your neighbor turn to werewolf and less than watching your only son and heir turn to a werewolf.

[Jester of the FoS]

I'm not convinced we need a gargoyle PC race in Ravenloft to make up for Dragonborn. The PHB itself says that not all of the uncommon races are in every world; as a DM I would feel just fine saying to my players, no Dragonborn PCs, and I don't think we need a substitute.

True, but I could say the exact same thing about the half-orc.

It's something I want to be available for anyone who wants it, but that most DMs can ignore if they so wish.

[Jester of the FoS]

I believe gravesight needs to make clear that the scene you watch may call for a horror check, with some bonuses since you're away.

I can make a reference to horror sometimes being the result.

Also, I want to revisit the horror checks: I believe that we need a table with modifiers after all. I understand Jester's point of view and trepidation to implement one, but I believe it's needed. A table is needed to provide guidelines and modifiers because not everything causes the same amount of horror.

I'm holding off on horror until I get the DMG.
I am wary of tables though. It greatly slows down play, and fear/horror need to be dealt with quickly. Pausing to look up a table is problematic.

One also has to design with the edition in mind. Tables of modifiers aren't found in 4e or 5e. Adding a big table of modifiers isn't designing rules for 5th Edition horror, it's using 3rd Edition horror in 5e.
At best, disadvantage could apply to the saves. Or, potentially, slightly different DCs based on the source.

[TheSalemlord]

Some players usually want to play the vampire type character. Maybe a Dhampir race? or Vryloka?

[alhoon]

One also has to design with the edition in mind. Tables of modifiers aren't found in 4e or 5e. Adding a big table of modifiers isn't designing rules for 5th Edition horror, it's using 3rd Edition horror in 5e.
At best, disadvantage could apply to the saves. Or, potentially, slightly different DCs based on the source.

I really don't see a problem with using (adjusted) 3rd edition horror in 5e. The tables of modifiers while they might slow down the game a bit were one of the features I miss from 3rd.

If the thought of using a table for horror checks sounds horrific to you (pun intended) then perhaps something like "Base 12 and the DM adjusts for the occasion, here are some examples" and give 2-3 examples that range from 9 to 16 or something.
Horror saves are an important element of Ravenloft so adding a paragraph dedicated to examples in order to give the "feel" without a table is OK IMO.

I don't hold high hopes about horror in DMG. It was never important for the game, hence Ravenloft became a different setting. As I've said time and again I believe 5e will have "modularity" not actual modularity.
Sure you can turn backgrounds "on" and "off" as well as feats, kick out races and classes you don't want, decide you don't want magic items etc. That's fine and well and yes the game remains balanced.
But at the core, you have the basic D&D. You add on it or not, you don't change the core. You can't have "per encounter, daily and at will powers the same progression for all classes" for example. If you liked that (which I didn't but others did) you have to go back in 4e.

[Mortavius]

I am wary of tables though. It greatly slows down play, and fear/horror need to be dealt with quickly. Pausing to look up a table is problematic.

One also has to design with the edition in mind. Tables of modifiers aren't found in 4e or 5e. Adding a big table of modifiers isn't designing rules for 5th Edition horror, it's using 3rd Edition horror in 5e.
At best, disadvantage could apply to the saves. Or, potentially, slightly different DCs based on the source.

For what it's worth, I agree with Jester. Horror would seem very out of place if there was a table I had to refer to every time I wanted to use the rules.

I haven't run a game in 5E yet, but just from reading the PHB it seems like it would run very quick and fast, from a mechanics point of view. I like that, and I wouldn't want to lose that just to add a bit more depth or realism to the Horror rules.

I currently run a PF game, and I find that if I want depth, that system works for me. There's all kinds of minutia I can delve into, adding bonuses here and penalties there. 5E seems like more of a quick, let's get down to business type of system. It doesn't concern itself with the nitty-gritty details. Slap advantage or disadvantage on it and call it done. Of course it goes a bit more than that, but not enough that it seems to compromise the speed and ease of play.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Keeping in mind that I haven't had time to read the rules pdf yet and am basing this just on what people have said here, I agree with Jester and Mortavius. If 5e doesn't do tables of bonuses/penalties, it's clunky to put one in just for horror. As much as I love that kind of thing, you have to work within the spirit of the system. Is there anything that they do to alter difficulty other than advantage/disadvantage?

[Mortavius]

Keeping in mind that I haven't had time to read the rules pdf yet and am basing this just on what people have said here, I agree with Jester and Mortavius. If 5e doesn't do tables of bonuses/penalties, it's clunky to put one in just for horror. As much as I love that kind of thing, you have to work within the spirit of the system. Is there anything that they do to alter difficulty other than advantage/disadvantage?

Well, the Bless spell gives three people a +1d4 they can choose to use towards a save or attack roll.

Haste gives a +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves, in addition to a few other benefits.

So there are definitely bonuses and penalties in the system, but they tend to be somewhat spread out, so you don't get large cases where you're adding and subtracting modifiers very commonly.

I don't have a problem with there being a few modifiers to horror checks; something simple and easy to keep in mind. But I don't think a table of mods applies to 5E, where there's nothing else like it. Nothing wrong with said table, but to me, that belongs in another edition of the game.

[alhoon]

Is there anything that they do to alter difficulty other than advantage/disadvantage?

Yeap, there are still other bonuses. For example, cover gives +2 AC etc. There were items that gave +1 to saves in the playtest material. That kind of thing.

OK, since nobody wants a table then I believe there should be 3-4 examples of different difficulties so the DM would have a guide.
Advantage\Disadvantage is a big bonus\penalty. You can't use it everywhere. Not to mention they can be cancelled without too much difficulty.

[Mortavius]

Is there anything that they do to alter difficulty other than advantage/disadvantage?

Yeap, there are still other bonuses. For example, cover gives +2 AC etc. There were items that gave +1 to saves in the playtest material. That kind of thing.

OK, since nobody wants a table then I believe there should be 3-4 examples of different difficulties so the DM would have a guide.
Advantage\Disadvantage is a big bonus\penalty. You can't use it everywhere. Not to mention they can be cancelled without too much difficulty.

I agree that there should be some material outlining what sorts of scenarios give different modifiers. It should be something short and sweet, guideline material for the DM to expound upon.

I forget where I read it, but somewhere (I want to say in the PHB) it says that Advantage/Disadvantage equates to a +5/-5 modifier. I thought that was very helpful, in terms of understanding it's effects.

[alhoon]

Not always, it rarely is that much.

For example, if you have a +10 to hit roll (about the default at lvl 11+) and you're trying to hit an ogre (AC 11) advantage doesn't even count as +1. It just makes it near impossible to miss (1/400 instead of 1/20).
On the other hand of the spectrum, if you have say a +2 to wisdom saves (fighter wis 14 at any level without magic assistance) and you're hit with a DC 13 effect, advantage makes a 50% chance of success to 75% chance of success so it's like a +5.

[Jester of the FoS]

Continuing to work on Dark Shadows and backgrounds.

Well, the Bless spell gives three people a +1d4 they can choose to use towards a save or attack roll.

Haste gives a +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves, in addition to a few other benefits.

So there are definitely bonuses and penalties in the system, but they tend to be somewhat spread out, so you don't get large cases where you're adding and subtracting modifiers very commonly.

Yeap, there are still other bonuses. For example, cover gives +2 AC etc. There were items that gave +1 to saves in the playtest material. That kind of thing.

OK, since nobody wants a table then I believe there should be 3-4 examples of different difficulties so the DM would have a guide.
Advantage\Disadvantage is a big bonus\penalty. You can't use it everywhere. Not to mention they can be cancelled without too much difficulty.

Spell and ability bonuses are easy to make finicky, as you'll be looking up the spell, or have that bonus written down on your sheet or a spell card. You're choosing to do that for the bonus. So there's less refernecing required.
Cover is almost an exception. I think they didn't want it to be the same as concealment, and reflect that hiding behind something makes you harder to hit.

If I were doing horror right now, I'd use the terms for DCs on page 171 of the PHB: easy, medium, hard, etc.
So a basic horrifying scene would be "Easy" and have a DC of 10. But anything that makes it more horrifying would increase the DC by one step. And rather than have a big table of modifiers just give a couple examples.

[alhoon]

So a basic horrifying scene would be "Easy" and have a DC of 10. But anything that makes it more horrifying would increase the DC by one step. And rather than have a big table of modifiers just give a couple examples.

Easy/moderate/hard is very good actually and if it's already in the game through the PHB then it would be much easier for the DM.
I believe that's the best approach

[nothri]

I'm toying with an alternate sort of path for the Dragonborn. I would call them simply "Spawn". Rather than be strictly the children of Dragons, I would have their origin be a sinister mystery save that they come from something dark and unfathomable. I would take this all in a Shadow Over Innsmouth route as well. At first they appear wholly human. But certain...traits and habits begin to creep in. As time goes by, they begin to feel "other" impulses and emotions. They manifest certain sinister abilities, like the breath weapon. The more they use their abilities, the faster the descent from human into....their true nature becomes. Sooner or later, they will lose the veneer of humanity entirely, and then they will be ready for their true purpose.

Possible "Draconic" canidates that spring to mind are Cthonic horrors beneath the sea, the Darklord of the Wild Lands, experiments in the bowels of Bleutspur, curses levelled by particularly vile loah in Souragne...you get the idea.

[alhoon]

I'm toying with an alternate sort of path for the Dragonborn. I would call them simply "Spawn". Rather than be strictly the children of Dragons, I would have their origin be a sinister mystery save that they come from something dark and unfathomable. I would take this all in a Shadow Over Innsmouth route as well. At first they appear wholly human. But certain...traits and habits begin to creep in. As time goes by, they begin to feel "other" impulses and emotions. They manifest certain sinister abilities, like the breath weapon. The more they use their abilities, the faster the descent from human into....their true nature becomes. Sooner or later, they will lose the veneer of humanity entirely, and then they will be ready for their true purpose.

Possible "Draconic" canidates that spring to mind are Cthonic horrors beneath the sea, the Darklord of the Wild Lands, experiments in the bowels of Bleutspur, curses levelled by particularly vile loah in Souragne...you get the idea.

Hey Nothri!

What you describe is more like... a terror path for failed power checks \ transposition rather than a race.