Comments on the 4th Ed fact thread

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Jester, still the 4th edition advocate even though you won't convert?

Jester and I have looked so much at 4e mechanics lately our eyes might bleed

[Jester of the FoS]

Nikolas is busy making himself invaluable to my creation of 4e Ravenloft rules. But my eyes are seriously red and my brain is starting to do mechanics in its sleep.

[alhoon]

But my eyes are seriously red and my brain is starting to do mechanics in its sleep.

I know. I also have problems to rest because of that too. I'm jungling 3 different systems at the time:
"What to steal from 4th for my own 3.75 game?"
"Does this work better? Does it work faster?"


About the SRD:
That's it? A list of names that we can use?! That's not the rules, it's which rules we can use!
Have I downloaded the wrong file?

[Nathan of the FoS]

About the SRD:
That's it? A list of names that we can use?! That's not the rules, it's which rules we can use!
Have I downloaded the wrong file?

Somehow, I fear you haven't.





If that's all there is to the "SRD", then I would like to point out that there is no "system" here to "reference". I was expecting a textbook, and what I've gotten is a list of chapter headings.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

You are referencing the core system from the PHB, DMG AND MM, as such the SRD no longer has the glossary style format of earlier editions.

References are now made specifically to these sources.

Fun fact -- you cannot include page numbers for references because they reserve the right to alter pagination at a later date.

I wish I could get away with that sort of thing.
"Yeah, that was taken from this source. I can't give you the page number though, you'll have to search for it yourself."

[Jester of the FoS]

Or how, according to the document, they have legal rights to terms like "elf" and "d6".
Or how they reserve the right to withdraw it without prior notice and all unsold material must be destroyed.
Or how they can retroactively change it without notice and you have to continually check their website for changes and updates.
Or how you cannot keep publishing 3e/OGL products (or at least product lines) once you convert a previously published 3e/OGL product.
Or how you can't make backwards compatible products.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

I really think that what they are afraid of at this point is someone like Monte Cook who can write quality material at a quick pace coming along and making 4e really work.

[HuManBing]

Wait, wait... what the hell?!

So they did a batguano insane turn with the OGL? Or the SRD? Or even both?

This can't be true. It doesn't even make sense. I mean, I am already skeptical of WotC for being greedy, but I didn't think they were actively stupid.

[alhoon]

Wait here... A company that doesn't give out its product for free isn't greedy. They didn't have a moral or legal obligation to give us the edition for free.
But I wish they were more lenient with the SRD and especially the OGL so that people may have actually used it.
3rd edition SRDs were so other-friendly that I believed they seriously hurt WotC.
Still, I believe that they will release a better SRD later. How much did they take to give out the OGL and the SRD of 3rd? A year?

And on the other hand, I suspect that leash on the OGL doesn't come from WotC but from above.

Those Law-knowing-and-understanding: Is it realistically possible to make a product if you're not from WotC?

On the other hand: I'm sure this new friendly approach to the fun base would do wonders to stop piracy!

[HuManBing]

Wait here... A company that doesn't give out its product for free isn't greedy.

This is debatable if it previously gave it out for free and allowed a third party industry to appear on reliance of that access. I'm not sure they can revoke all past and established products, or that they could make that stand up in court, contract or no.

But this is just part of the "greedy" analysis. The entire lead up to the 4E thing, including the shuttering of the magazines, and the push towards a patchy and incomplete core rule set, and the promise of having to buy yet more stuff to get back to where you were before the change... that's what I find greedy. Not to mention the dismissive treatment of the non-FR/Eb gamers at their forums.

Some will respond that it's just corporate business and that it's WotC's right to do this. My counter response is that the market works two ways, and if a supplier goes bad, the consumer has the choice, the right, and perhaps even the duty to take their dollar elsewhere.

Edit: Shameless GURPS plug!

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Those Law-knowing-and-understanding: Is it realistically possible to make a product if you're not from WotC?

Make a product? Yes. Publish a product? No.
No publisher in the world would risk getting near the current GSL and SRD.
It looks like the stranglehold is there so that they can still grant license out on their titles (like they did with Ravenloft to Arthaus/S&S last time) without having to worry about the optional books and campaign settings that sprung up from alternative independent publishers and began to hit stores with some success.

Honestly, this is a step backward in time for both gaming developers and writers. I feel really bad for the small companies and presses that started up during the OGL of 3rd and 3.5 under the impression that there was a niche opening up in the market.

[Jester of the FoS]

Yeah, it's much more lenient than White Wolf or Hero System's GSL. Why? Because they don't have one.
Of course, it's so restrictive it might as well be banning books. Look at what Necromancer games had planned:
http://www.necromancergames.com/
[quote]Advanced Player's Guide: Feel like your new Fourth Edition Player's Handbook doesn't have all the races and classes that you love, such as the druid, barbarian or bard? Then look no further than the Advanced Player's Guide. If it is a classic race or class and it didn't make its way into the official books, then you can find them here. Written by industry giant and 4E insider Ari Marmel! Price and release date to be determined.[/qupte]

Very nice. Too bad you cannot offer any alternate methods of character creation, gaining xp, xp/level, etc.
Oh, and if WotC ever releases a competitive product with say a druid, barbarian or bard then Necro games has to stop selling and printing the book.

[HuManBing]

Question: what's the difference between GSL and OGL?

(This is a real question. There is no punchline.)

[alhoon]

But this is just part of the "greedy" analysis. The entire lead up to the 4E thing, including the shuttering of the magazines, and the push towards a patchy and incomplete core rule set, and the promise of having to buy yet more stuff to get back to where you were before the change... that's what I find greedy. Not to mention the dismissive treatment of the non-FR/Eb gamers at their forums.

And there we agree. That's shamelessly greedy. They sell us half a product. I didn't ask for the whole 8 years of 3rd edition options. But at least, include in the core books as much material as in 3rd edition core books!
The PHB doesn't include many of the traditional archetypes of the fighter or the wizard. The MManual makes me ask "where's the other half?"

Very nice. Too bad you cannot offer any alternate methods of character creation, gaining xp, xp/level, etc.
Oh, and if WotC ever releases a competitive product with say a druid, barbarian or bard then Necro games has to stop selling and printing the book.

So it's more like:
"Sell the books we haven't got out yet until we do. Then you stop selling"

You can publish adventures right?

[High Priest Mikhal]

Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali (Latin, lit. "No crime, no punishment without a previous penal law")

In this case, those who adhered to the OGL in 3e and whatever new license in 4e (if there is one) committed no crime, and thus there can be no punishment--i.e., revocation of past products. At least that's how it's supposed to work. Doing so is also a violation of contract and could get Wizards in a mess of trouble if anyone bothered to pursue it.

I have to agree with HuManBing on all points. If WotC doesn't shape up in the next couple of products then I'm taking my money somewhere else. The core rulebooks do feel incomplete, patchwork, and rather bland. The lack of rules for special materials (other than a brief blurb on adamantine and item HP) is especially irritating, though I find the bare bones mechanics most upsetting of all. No fluff means no meat to chew on and a rather bland, tasteless product.

I'm hinging D&D's future on Manual of the Planes. If it's half as bad as the three core rulebooks, then I'm calling it quits. Then again it seems like 4e was doomed from the start (specifically, DDI and all the Web features not being done on time and the bad core books). Either they'll pull off a "Disneyland" and get things right despite a rocky start, or crash and burn. Time will tell.