Comments on the 4th Ed fact thread

[alhoon]

I will get in DDI. And ... bi-weekly?! Two times a week is better! It's not that 4th edition is hard on the DM after all.

[Lord Soth]

Or just not 1st level.

Ever see "DM of the Rings"? The guy's a death machine. Check this out.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=780
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1062
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1071
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1129
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1134

I was tempted to set-up a bi-weekly or monthly 'Loft game on DDI, but I want to see how flexible the system is first and how many people it can accommodate. I'd rather not have everyone dropping $15, and want to make sure I can do what I want.

I heard (so I'm not sure for certain), that DM's will get 8 tokens a month which they can use to let others play free (I.E. Get a 4-man group, play twice a month, and only the DM has to pay for a monthly membership). So if that's correct, then you could try that, first.

[alhoon]

Since fortunatelly I'm comfortable enough to afford 15$ per month, I prefer not to.

On archons:

Archons are useful because of their single-mindedness. They’re intelligent, but they have no culture or society of their own. They’re intentionally disconnected from their roots so that every big bad evil guy can have archons in his employ—probably acquired in some dark ritual or bargain with the sinister forces from the Abyss or wider Elemental Chaos. Likewise, every soon-to-be-disturbed tomb or secret fortress can have archon guardians; they don’t age and they don’t mind waiting centuries for interlopers (read: the PCs) to come along

Quite clear this time in what use the developers made the archons for.

About the archons themselves... they're cool. Little else to say.

[alhoon]

About the new settlement: Well... 1350 people, 900 in farms surrounding the farm... 60 soldiers, up to 350 militia! People have a tendecy to get in the army, don't they? How is it possible for such a small settlement to raise such an army? In 3.5 it was 1/20 militia, 1/100 soldier!

Yes, I understand that people have to defend themselves etc, the pools of wilderness etc but ... 1/30 from the town and 1/60 from the farms are in the military and about 15% of the total population are in the militia! So about 1/2 of the able bodied men can be pressed in the military with a few minutes of notice.

[Nathan of the FoS]

About the new settlement: Well... 1350 people, 900 in farms surrounding the farm... 60 soldiers, up to 350 militia! People have a tendecy to get in the army, don't they? How is it possible for such a small settlement to raise such an army? In 3.5 it was 1/20 militia, 1/100 soldier!

Yes, I understand that people have to defend themselves etc, the pools of wilderness etc but ... 1/30 from the town and 1/60 from the farms are in the military and about 15% of the total population are in the militia! So about 1/2 of the able bodied men can be pressed in the military with a few minutes of notice.

Well, that is the point of a militia--to have everybody who owns a weapon (and is able to use it well enough to not be a danger to himself and his fellow militia members) available to defend the settlement, as needed. In a wild area on the edge of civilization it's pretty reasonable to have most, if not all, of the able-bodied men as militia members.

I'm not sure about the soldiers--were they sent by a government colonizing this area to protect the settlement? To have 60 soldiers from a population of 2250 really isn't that many in a dangerous place at the edge of civilization, methinks. The 1/100, 1/20 ratios sound more pertinent to a settled place where the populace doesn't expect raids from the neighbors.

[alhoon]

Even in more primitive civilizations like the gaul village before the romans came, where fights between tribes were common the soldiers weren't 1/30 people. Militia? Yes, every able bodied man.

But have you seen the soldier in the WotC boards? He's a killer! 3rd level soldier with chainmail, crossbow, halberd. And in the points of light, the goverment doesn't send you aid. These 60 soldiers from the 2250 are locals. 1 man every for every 15-20 farmers, merchants, old people, laborers etc is ... a soldier. A well trained and able bodied soldier with good and expensive equipment.
How much are the taxes in this place to support such an army? Even feeding them (let alone paying or equiping) them would cost heavily.

Now add to the 60/2250 of armed forces the percentage of people that are bandits and mercenaries... Wouldn't it be logical if there were at least 40 bandits or criminals if there are so many able bodied guards?

If German/French/English like settlements are like these, more warlike-settlements like barbarians, nomads, beduins etc...


In fact I feel pitty for the orcs. 50 bersekers + 30 skirmishers? No big deal against a well equiped army of 60 men accompanied with at least 100-150 militia.

[Jester of the FoS]

If your medieval village had to worry about orcs and goblins and archons wouldn't you feel comfortable giving a little bit extra in taxes to pay for the town guard?
And it is only 60 out of 2250 (or 2% of the population) that are professional soldiers. The militia would mostly be farmers with swords, hunters, blacksmiths with hammers, etc.
Heck, I'm surprised only 15% of the population is able-bodied; 50% women, 15% children and 20% seniors?

But taxes. In 3e the average untrained labourer made 1sp/day. So assuming tax at 10% (or 1cp per day) you'd get 21.9 gp/day. So for the soldiers to get decent pay (2sp/day) they'd need to get 12gp or roughly 54% of the taxes.
Assuming no one makes more than 1sp/day and soldiers get paid really well.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

If the population figures in 4E are anything like those in 3E, they wouldn't include children. That makes the 15% figure look even more like an underestimate, and it gets worse if you consider the default game-setting assumption that female warriors are commonplace enough to be accepted in adventuring parties.

Remember, too, that "soldier" in a D&D setting means "law enforcement" as well as "military". There need to be enough of them to keep crime or peasant unrest from inconveniencing those in power, even in the absence of outside threats.

[alhoon]

Jester and Roti: Militia doesn't mean all the able bodied farmers. We have militia in Greece. It means people that legally own a weapon and spend some time each year training. In ancient Greece that was indeed about 5-10% of the population*. In recent days it is less than 1%.

* Some reports say that a town of 6000-8000 people had 400 militia.
NOTE: This town with the 400 militia and about 50-100 hoplites tried to go against Sparta when they fought against Argos.

So no, the farmer with the three sons that keeps a mace over the fireplace doesn't count as militia. Even if he did count as militia, by training a few days per year his three sons don't have weapons or training so even if they're able bodied they're not militia.

However: As was brought up once in Kargatane or this site, the English still have a law that every free man (not serf) must practice archery once per week. Yes Wicci! You're breaking the law! You should be ready to defend your freedom with your bow!
So I guess when the law was in effect the English had a militia of at least 20% - 30% of their men (free landholders abiding to the law).

About taxes: Respectfully, you underestimate a lot of things.
According to the Stronghold's builder guidebook, the guard and the soldier (like chain, halbert, crossbow) was indeed making 6 gp per month.
However, smiths, librarians and all other professionals make 12 gp per month. Masons, scribes etc make 9 gp, but sages, alchemists, acolytes, etc get 30+
So assuming that 35% of the population is middle class (lets assume average 12gp/month), from the 2250 people the taxes are about 1400 gp/month. The soldiers in order to get paid need 360 gp. With a few officers that rises to something about 400-450 gp/month. Now add to this that 60 soldiers will need to eat and that is extra, another 100 gp at least: 550 gp. Now add that every so often one of them dies and his armor is destroyed and must be replaced. It's a bad world, isn't it? So let's assume that you should equip about 5 new guards (300/guard) every year = 1500/12 = 125gp.
The cost is already about 650 gold. The Lord has to pay also his elite guards, his servants, his wife's clothes, give some money for the church and to his liege, pay for repairs on the walls, increase the infrastructure etc.

However: It doesn't work that way in D&D. You're not taxed according to income. The 2250 people probably pay the same tax. According to D&D about 2 silver/adult = 450 gold.
Yet... The liege has other income probably. He may have fields where laborers work and give him 20-30% of the product. He may actually own the blacksmith, paying 10-12 gp to the blacksmith. Etc.

My problem: These 60 are not your 3rd edition 1st lvl warriors with the scale armor, shield, weapon and abilities like 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Human Guard Level 1 Solider
Medium natural Humanoid xp 100
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +5
HP 31 Bloodied 15
AC 16 Fortitude 14 Reflex 13 Will 12
Speed 5
m Halberd (standard at will) * Weapon
Reach 2: +8 vs AC 1d10+2 damage and the target is markes until the end of the human guards next turn.
M Powerful Strike (standard recharge 5,6) * Weapon
Requires halberd: reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d10+6 Damage and the target is knocked prone.
R Crossbow (standard at will) * Weapon
Range 15/30; +7 vs AC; 1d8+1 damage
Alignment Any Languages Common
Skills Streetwise +6
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 11 (+0)
Con 15 (+2) Int 10 (+0) Cha 12 (+1)
Equipment chainmail, halberd, crossbow with 20 bolts.

These would give a pause to the bad guys!

[Jonathan Winters]

Hi Alhoon,

Even though I have no interest in 4E, this is a very interesting topic!

Patrick

[Jester of the FoS]

Jester and Roti: Militia doesn't mean all the able bodied farmers. We have militia in Greece. It means people that legally own a weapon and spend some time each year training. In ancient Greece that was indeed about 5-10% of the population*. In recent days it is less than 1%.

* Some reports say that a town of 6000-8000 people had 400 militia.
NOTE: This town with the 400 militia and about 50-100 hoplites tried to go against Sparta when they fought against Argos.

So no, the farmer with the three sons that keeps a mace over the fireplace doesn't count as militia. Even if he did count as militia, by training a few days per year his three sons don't have weapons or training so even if they're able bodied they're not militia.

A modern definition and use of militia is that, when military training is more needed, weapons more complicated, and a knowledge of tactics and procedures required.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/militia
Main Entry: mi·li·tia
Pronunciation: mə-ˈli-shə
Function: noun
1 a: a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b: a body of citizens organized for military service
2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

I believe in this case the definition is 2, the equivalent of the freemen skilled in bow use.

If those stats are accurate then those 60 ARE the 4e version of level 1 warriors!
They're 1st level melee opponents without the training to use daily or encounter or at-will powers like even a 1st level fighter. They rely on their basic attack and their super ability only does an an additional 4 damage.
They have a decent to-hit and will likely give pause to melee opponents but an controllers or casters (or artillery) will mow through their low ref/will defenses.

[alhoon]

Well, indeed orcs have double their hp and better defences. However, these guards are well trained and equiped.
1st level fighters are supposed to be heroes, so obviousle the guards aren't as powerful. The 1st level fighters were made in a way that the guards would say "Wooooooo! I wish I was that powerful". The 4th edition 1st lvl fighter equals to the 3rd or 4th level fighter of 3rd edition.

As for the accuracy of the stats: I believe the guards have too high to hit for their level. I believe the end ones will have about 2 less in hit rolls.

Soldiers: Here's a map of the Byzantine empire at 1045 (one of the good periods). Assumptions are that the Byzantine empire had about 10-12 million people in its borders in that age.

Assumptions are that the Byzantine empire had about 250.000 soldiers in 1025 (the map was almost the same)

250.000 soldiers for 10 million people. That's 2.5% for an empire beset by enemies everywhere and fighting wars with everyone trying to protect it's borders. Inside the Empire, rebellions were taking place. The use of Themata was the reason the Byzantines had so much army. After the dessolution of the system of Themata, the percentage of army was less than 1%.

As for the militia: My history knowledge and wikipedia aren't helping here. But:
350 ready-to-fight men? Even if they are minions they would be a huge obstacle.
I believe the equivalent of the freemen trained in bows, militia men trained in the use of weapons should have been about 200 people; Double of the 3rd edition and about 10% of the population.

I ask again: How would be a settlement of vikings?
2250 men would have 50-60 3rd level brutes as guards/raiders and the militia would be 600 instead of 350 and with better stats.
What would pose a threat to such a community?

EDIT: I just realized that I'm a moron that can't do basic arithmetics. As I said, the Byzantines had about 2.5% of their population as soldiers...
The settlement presented has 2,67%.

[Jester of the FoS]

Well, indeed orcs have double their hp and better defences. However, these guards are well trained and equiped.
1st level fighters are supposed to be heroes, so obviousle the guards aren't as powerful. The 1st level fighters were made in a way that the guards would say "Wooooooo! I wish I was that powerful". The 4th edition 1st lvl fighter equals to the 3rd or 4th level fighter of 3rd edition.

In 3e 1st level warriors and 1st level fighters are separated by a feat, stats and maybe a hp or two.
In 4e 1st level soldiers and 1st level fighters are separated by at-will powers, encounter powers, daily powers plus the ability to mark opponents.
I'll take the ability to do 3[w]+str once per day plus extra abilities over the ability to do an extra 4 damage and knock someone prone every 3 rounds.

[DocBeard]

Well, remember that these soldiers are probably going to be mooks, whereas monsters are a more signifigant threat requiring the intervention of a band of rough but heroic adventurers to save the day while the town milita desperately holds the orc raiding party back...

Plus, I think soldier more means, 'Owns armor, weapon, knows how to use.' instead of 'Peasent with a pitchfork or axe' than 'Professional warrior in an army.', since 4E's not really supposed to have all that many armies of good.

If anything, the orc horde has the benefit of support from other sections of the horde, resources gleaned from ravaging the land, not having to worry about defending homes and busniesses, and being all in one place instead of spread throughout a township with little to no support from the neighboring feifs. It's not just sixty guys versus fifty guys all standing in a line, after all-professional raiders are going to work a little smarter than that.

[alhoon]

In 3e 1st level warriors and 1st level fighters are separated by a feat, stats and maybe a hp or two.
In 4e 1st level soldiers and 1st level fighters are separated by at-will powers, encounter powers, daily powers plus the ability to mark opponents.
I'll take the ability to do 3[w]+str once per day plus extra abilities over the ability to do an extra 4 damage and knock someone prone every 3 rounds.

My point exactly. A guard would see a fighter fell a bandit with a couple of blows and say "Wow! That's a hero!".

As for orcs getting support from other parts of the horde etc while the humans don't get support from others... that's un-orclike.