Comments/suggestions on Jester's rules (5e)

[alhoon]

Just Checked the Gargoyles... don't take it the wrong way. This is just my opinion, and I hope it doesn't discourage you from further work.

I didn't like the implementation. It felt too... not gargoylish. Also I can't imagine a party heading in a sleepy, foggy village with an armored gargoyle in tow.

I agree that there needs to be a race to cover for dragonborn. I also like the idea of gargoyles as a race or something. Perhaps some "traditional" gargoyle powers like the ability to gain slashing and piercing damage resistance while in "lurker" mode, passing for statues etc.
I also don't see the gargoyles filling the "charismatic warrior" shoes. I would prefer +2 con/+1 str and +2con/+1 wis personally.
The default ability of the gargoyles to pass as statues should be there along with another gargoylish ability to go in "lurker mode" i.e. turning practically to a statue, slowling metabolism to a crawl (1/100th or something) and getting resistance to slashing and piercing. Like the gargoyles that stay immobile for months. To offset this, perhaps the gargoyle has disadvantage the 1st round out of "lurker mode"?
As for racial abilities, how about a +1 natural armor for the non-flying gargoyles?

[Jester of the FoS]

I didn't like the implementation. It felt too... not gargoylish. Also I can't imagine a party heading in a sleepy, foggy village with an armored gargoyle in tow.

It is a weird visual, but a dragon-man isn't much better. Or an elf, really...

I agree that there needs to be a race to cover for dragonborn. I also like the idea of gargoyles as a race or something. Perhaps some "traditional" gargoyle powers like the ability to gain slashing and piercing damage resistance while in "lurker" mode, passing for statues etc.
I also don't see the gargoyles filling the "charismatic warrior" shoes. I would prefer +2 con/+1 str and +2con/+1 wis personally.
The default ability of the gargoyles to pass as statues should be there along with another gargoylish ability to go in "lurker mode" i.e. turning practically to a statue, slowling metabolism to a crawl (1/100th or something) and getting resistance to slashing and piercing. Like the gargoyles that stay immobile for months. To offset this, perhaps the gargoyle has disadvantage the 1st round out of "lurker mode"?

A third subrace that's a lurker might be fun. Some damage resistance and the ability to "go stone" would be different.

I'll also likely add some hibernation fluff, where all the gargoyles slowly harden and become like stone, losing the ability to act but being resistant to all damage.

As for racial abilities, how about a +1 natural armor for the non-flying gargoyles?

The non-flier is pretty much straight dragonborn (based on late playtests, and subject to revision with the PHB). I didn't want to change anything, for players who really fall in love with the dragonborn as is.

[alhoon]

It is a weird visual, but a dragon-man isn't much better. Or an elf, really...

The non-flier is pretty much straight dragonborn (based on late playtests, and subject to revision with the PHB). I didn't want to change anything, for players who really fall in love with the dragonborn as is.

A dragonborn is worse.
For those that loved the dragonborn as is... they can play dragonborn in Ravenloft. The same with Half-orcs really. If you want a half-orc, you can play a half-orc stolen by the mists. I believe the gargoyles should bring "something different" on the table.
Well, that's my opinion at least! You do what you like.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

While I agree with alhoon that there's no reason the DPs couldn't snatch up a Dragonborn or Half-Orc if they wanted to, (Hello, Arjhan) I've always found the caliban as a reskinned half-orc to be a really elegant solution. One mist-led half-orc could work, but to fill the niche as a core playable race, you need another option. (not every campaign can have a "one of a kind" exception) and changing from an outright monster (or half-monster) to a deformed human takes it from "get the pitchforks and torches" to "we don't serve your kind here," which is more playable on a regular basis.

So I'd love to see the same thing done somehow for dragonborn. But without a big change to Ravenloftf's culture, I don't know if gargoyles fit the bill. It's trading a non-gothic monster for a gothic monster, sure. but still a monster, still even less likely to be treated like a person by the average citizen than a caliban would be.

[alhoon]

So Gon, in your opinion what could an alternative for Dragonborn be? Different Callibans? That's what I was planning to do personally and change the breath attack with a hex. But I admit it's not the most creative thing.

I also like the idea of gargoyles as a race BTW. Wherever that goes, I WILL steal that and make them a "race of monsters" for NPCs. We have a lot of monsters after all. Many can hide in the flock, others can't. A sea hag can't hide, nor can a gargoyle. Both not very playable.

PS. Gonzoron, to be fair a half-orc would probably be considered a calliban, while a dragonborn would probably be attacked on sight.
I believe thri-kreen (the bug-people), dragonborn, gargoyles etc can't be played in any setting that they're not somewhat common. Not just Ravenloft, anywhere.


PS2. How about changing the halflings with goblins? I always used goblins/kobolds as "city-folk" NPCs. Many of Darkon's cities in my campaign have kobolds that work to install traps and goblins that sweep cellars and chimneys (darkvision, small size) or work in sewers under Martira bay. Yes kobolds are "higher-standing" than goblins because they are, after all, good trappers.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, yeah, maybe a Half-Orc could pass for a caliban now that calibans are a thing.

I don't have a good alternative for the dragonborn. If I did I would have suggested it. Frankly, I don't know much about them other than the superficial. I'd have to read up on them a bit first.

[Jester of the FoS]

Added the first draft of dark shadows. There are maybe another half-dozen I haven't quiet finished yet, but I wanted to give people a glance at what I'm doing.
There's a little more flavour to them, but that doesn't really need to be in the forums document.

Didn't add the push/compel mechanic, but might mention that as an option in a sidebar, likely also mentioning it as an option for flaws as well.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The Dark Shadows are very nice. A few minor points:
Cursed: "instead roll 5d6 and use the highest of the three rolls." should be "instead roll 5d6 and use the highest three of the five rolls." yes?

Haunted: I would like to see the 3e mechanical benefit retained: i.e. you could spend inspiration to re-roll a failed Perception check (the Geist notices something you don't and tells you). Could be in addition to the stated ability, which is a good one.

Redeemed and Hollow are too similar in effect, I think. I don't see how that effect fits Redeemed, so maybe something could replace it? (also, in both, "you can spends" should be "you can spend"

Reincarnated seems a bit too flexible, compared to some of the others. I realize the time limit is shorter to compensate, but maybe you should have to pick a few skills (3? 4?) that your past selves had and stick with them. For flavor reasons, I would say you wouldn't have to choose them up front, but once a "memory surfaces" and assists with a check, that skill is locked in as one of the N skills forever. But maybe that's too complex.

[alhoon]

Loved the Reincarnated as it is... except if it's supposed to be just ONE past life. If the reincarnated has been reborn just once, then yes, it should be 3 skills picked at character creation or something. But it's better IMO if it's many lives and any skill.
I could see as a drawback for that, that you can't be raised (like elves in AD&D) but only resurrected. After all, once you die, you go back in the cycle so to speak, to be reborn.

[alhoon]

BTW, my sister in the Ravenloft 5e game we play, took a dark shadow. The cold one which is kinda meh as far as roleplaying opportunities go, but still it would enhance the game. At least it made her think about her char a bit more.


NOTE: You use inspiration to get advantage on skills, hit rolls or saves. So a benefit as "spend inspiration to reroll a fear a save" is kinda moot since you could mostly do that already. OK, not as a reaction but still it's a minor benefit.
So I changed it to "You add your proficiency bonus against fear, horror, madness saves and against death spells"

[Jester of the FoS]

Cursed: "instead roll 5d6 and use the highest of the three rolls." should be "instead roll 5d6 and use the highest three of the five rolls." yes?

Correct. I need to tweak the phrasing on that a tad. But I'm more worried about getting everything done before I make things perfect.

Haunted: I would like to see the 3e mechanical benefit retained: i.e. you could spend inspiration to re-roll a failed Perception check (the Geist notices something you don't and tells you). Could be in addition to the stated ability, which is a good one.

That sounds like a good idea.
Rerolling a failed check is something inspiration can already kinda do, and I don't want it to be too much of a retcon so I'll have to look at the phrasing.
Adding Perception and Investigation to the skill list might work for that.
Or allowing the PC to use the spirit's Wisdom of 14 (or so).

Redeemed and Hollow are too similar in effect, I think. I don't see how that effect fits Redeemed, so maybe something could replace it? (also, in both, "you can spends" should be "you can spend"

I like the flavour of both options, but they were some of the more difficult ones to think of a bonus.
Little is set in stone and if I think of better mechanics I'll revise.

Reincarnated seems a bit too flexible, compared to some of the others. I realize the time limit is shorter to compensate, but maybe you should have to pick a few skills (3? 4?) that your past selves had and stick with them. For flavor reasons, I would say you wouldn't have to choose them up front, but once a "memory surfaces" and assists with a check, that skill is locked in as one of the N skills forever. But maybe that's too complex.

I've gone back on forth on that myself. It's potent but it doesn't have the option to double proficiency, like some of the others.
Proficiency just grants a +2-6 depending on level. Nice but advantage can be better, granting as much as a +5 if you only need a 10 or so on a d20.
Reincarnated is cool but you're better off taking advantage from inspiration, and you can use that with any check.

Unless you already have advantage, at which point the bonus becomes cool. Or you really need a tool proficiency. Which should also be included...

Loved the Reincarnated as it is... except if it's supposed to be just ONE past life. If the reincarnated has been reborn just once, then yes, it should be 3 skills picked at character creation or something. But it's better IMO if it's many lives and any skill.

The flavour suggests multiple lives IIRC (but it could also be presented as a single life depending on the individual).

I could see as a drawback for that, that you can't be raised (like elves in AD&D) but only resurrected. After all, once you die, you go back in the cycle so to speak, to be reborn.

That might work as well. I'll add it.

[Jester of the FoS]

NOTE: You use inspiration to get advantage on skills, hit rolls or saves. So a benefit as "spend inspiration to reroll a fear a save" is kinda moot since you could mostly do that already. OK, not as a reaction but still it's a minor benefit.
So I changed it to "You add your proficiency bonus against fear, horror, madness saves and against death spells"

Which is why I wanted some feedback.
The subtle benefit is that if you fail and don't immediately use your inspiration you might be stuck. Not everything allows a new saving throw each round. So the benefit allows you to say "no, I want to roll again right now."

The alternative I was considering was that it auto-removed the condition. You spend inspiration and are just considered to have made the saving throw. Which seems potent but advantage is comparable to a +5-3 bonus to saves, which should make most DCs.

BTW, my sister in the Ravenloft 5e game we play, took a dark shadow. The cold one which is kinda meh as far as roleplaying opportunities go, but still it would enhance the game. At least it made her think about her char a bit more.

As a bonus preview, here's the full text for Cold One:
An undead creature drained you of your life energy, almost killing you and turning you into an unliving monstrosity. Your assailant might have been a spectral undead, like a wraith or ghost, or a corporeal, like a wight or vampire. Since the attack, you have regained your strength and vigor, but not your humanity and vitality: some ineffable part of your soul is absent.
Characteristics
You lack warmth, both physically and emotionally. Your body temperature is low and your skin is cool to the touch. While not entirely emotionless, you are lacking in joy and compassion and find happiness fleeting. Even your strong negative emotions, such and anger, as muted as you lack the passion that fuels rage, jealousy, and hatred. But you are also calm and not easily frightened or unnerved.
Temptation
There is the continued urge to succumb to your melancholy, to sink into inaction and surrender to your crushing malaise. Without passion you have few hopes and little dreams, and it is difficult to find the motivation to continue to fight against the darkness, both external and internal.
Benefit
You can spend your inspiration to make a new saving throw against being frightened. You can do this when it is not your turn by using your reaction.
Additionally, animated undead such as zombies and skeletons pay you little attention. You can spend your inspiration to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check as if you were heavily obscured. This effect last 1 minute or until you take any action.

I'm giving each dark shadow characteristics, a paragraph of potential character traits, and a temptation, which is a suggestion for how the shadow pushes you to sin or despair.

[alhoon]

You spend inspiration and are just considered to have made the saving throw. Which seems potent but advantage is comparable to a +5-3 bonus to saves, which should make most DCs.

Almost had TPK last session because of failed fear saves, including advantage rolls actually. So, yeah, actually "auto-remove condition" seems better. I would still suggest a bonus to saves vs death spells because of the condition. Their rare enough anyway.

[alhoon]

Follow up: When you give someone a background power that along with other stuff "gives advantage against death saves" players get nervous.

You put a something that could be bad and you get looks of "Hmmm... that must have death attacks." even if it's just a minion or just a creepy fellow.

[Mortavius]

Having read some of my new PHB, I wanted to mention something.

I'm not convinced we need a gargoyle PC race in Ravenloft to make up for Dragonborn. The PHB itself says that not all of the uncommon races are in every world; as a DM I would feel just fine saying to my players, no Dragonborn PCs, and I don't think we need a substitute.

Just my feelings on the matter, a thought that occurred to me after I read that passage in the book.