Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

cure · Post by **cure** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:11 pm

C. S. Lewis, perhaps borrowing from the tale of Fafnir, has a disagreeable and greedy person turn into a dragon when he sleeps on a horde of (cursed?) coins belonging to the previous 'dragon.' As he can no longer speak and as he is seperated by his new form from humanity, the transformation proves to quite horrible. Throwing off the transformation involves the shedding of the skin, both literally and figuratively. Perhaps usable in Ravenloft.

DeepShadow of FoS · Post by **DeepShadow of FoS** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:12 pm

Joël of the FoS wrote: - a Tarnished Dragon from the Forgotten Children netbook
- According to Elena Faithhold, there is a red dragon devasting parts of her land (Nidalia)
- Strahd had a red dragon in his castle (killed by Soth in KotBR) (but could be back as a dracolich)
- another dreamlike dragon in Forgotten Terror
- and of course there is Ebb, Azalin’s shadow dragon, with his mate (Darkon) (Gaz 2)

Where is that tarnished dragon? I can't find it in TFC.

alhoon · Post by **alhoon** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:34 am

Joël of the FoS wrote: But in a low magic, low fantasy setting, I would recommend their use to be very rare, if ever used.

Sithicus and especially Shadow Rift aren't low fantasy. And there are other domains that are more high-fantasy in the realms.

On the other hand, a dragon needs his space. If you play by canon-sized domains a large dragon's hunting area would propably be as large as a domain.

The Giamarga · Post by **The Giamarga** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am

The only other mention of a dragon in RL that i know of is from the TSR trading card for Hoelgar Arnuttson. Hoelgar got canonized in Gaz 2 (though with a typo: he became a Brd instead of a Brb), so the Golden Eyed Youth is at least semi-canon.

This dragon is a very young golden dragon who entered Ravenloft on the heels of Hoelgar after the killing of his entire brood by Hoelgar and his men. I daresay he travelled in human form and lost his memories when he entered Darkon and has forgotten that he is a dragon at all.

In one of TSR 1993 trading cards, they introduce Hoelgar Arnutsson, a (2E) Berserk fighter, who is later mentioned as Watchmaster of Martira Bay in the Bleak House Boxed Set. On the card it says that he slew an entire brood of gold dragons with his men. But one of the young dragons could flee. When the last adult dragon - it's mother i believe - died it cursed Hoelgar to die "when the golden-eyed youth wields the silver blade". Hoelgar followed the fleeing young dragon when the Mists took them both.

Apparently he then traveled the breadth of Ravenloft for 20 years until he settled in Martira Bay and probably forgot who he was following and why due to Darkon's special power. He also apparently got level drained severely as he had 10 levels on the trading card and has only 8 levels in the latest 3E mention in Gazetteer2 (which also falsely lists him as Brd8, which was probably meant to be Brb8. I'd make him a middle aged Brb4/Ftr4 or Brb2/Ftr4/Frenzied Berserker2)

So assuming that the Youth was only a wyrmling when entering Ravenloft there's now a young gold dragon with a mission loose in semi-canon Ravenloft. (I'd make him a young gold dragon Avenger1) As gold dragons can shapechange into humans (and animals) the young dragon probably spent most of his time in human shape. Now when he enters Darkon in pursuit of Hoelgar, Darkon's memory modification power will set in. Would he then perhaps forget that he is a dragon ?

...
Perhaps the Youth got deposited in Darkon from the very first day. So he's a young adventurer with strange powers who someday finds a silver blade. He dimly remembers that his family was wiped out by some dark warrior. Or may be he does not remember even that. (Then the Avenger level would make little sense) When he comes to Martira Bay everything gets rather interesting. Or maybe they meet outside of Darkon somewhere where memory slowly returns...

Did I mention that Hoelgar has a (Gold) Dragon Slayer greatsword on the '93 card. This is far more powerful than a simple 3E dragon bane weapon, doing (in 2E) double damage to dragons (which would translate to the 3E bane property), but triple damage to gold dragons. Hoelgar would of course have forgotten even that. Bleak House mentions that he has an extensive weapon collection but doesn't mention the sword specifically, which fits with that. Perhaps his collecting comes from a subconcious wish to regain his lost sword, or mayhap he's searching for the Silver Blade...

Now if one or both of these weapons were intelligent, that would add a whole new dimension to the story. This could also explain how a mere 10th level Berserk with his gang can kill a whole brood of gold dragons. This leads to an interesting question: Do intelligent weapons fall under Darkon's curse too?

...
3. Hoelgar, his sword, and the young gold dragon in Darkon (the biggest problem is justifying Hoelgar's killing of an entire gold dragon family at his original level given the mechanical upgrade in power to dragons from 2nd to 3rd ed.)
Exactly. 3E Hoelgar is almost outmatched with a (very) young gold dragon already. Even in 2E, killing a bunch of gold dragons at level 10 with his cronies is a stretch. The Frenzied Berserker prestige class and his supposed level loss (he was CR 10 when he slew them) help little. I also imagine he had a rather large band of compatriots. But what would drive such people even attempt to kill a whole brood of dragons?

I think the key is his sword. A gold dragon slayer greatsword is a very powerful weapon in 2E. It's conversion to 3E is the key point in upping the power level. I say make it intelligent and with a purpose to kill (golden or good) dragons. This would be the motivating force and the real villain to be snatched up by the mists. The silver blade is then of course a counterpart to it and should probably also be intelligent but not as powerful.

from here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... um=10&pg=1

The Giamarga · Post by **The Giamarga** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:40 am

The Giamarga wrote:The only other mention of a dragon in RL that i know of is from the TSR trading card for Hoelgar Arnuttson. Hoelgar got canonized in Gaz 2 (though with a typo: he became a Brd instead of a Brb), so the Golden Eyed Youth is at least semi-canon.

OT I just noticed that the link above is dead. When did you guys crop the forum again?

Gonzoron of the FoS · Post by **Gonzoron of the FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:40 am

We didn't. link looks fine to me... try again.

(And I don't intend to crop it again if I can help it. Server space is cheap nowadays...)

Joël of the FoS · Post by **Joël of the FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:45 am

DeepShadow of FoS wrote:
Joël of the FoS wrote: - a Tarnished Dragon from the Forgotten Children netbook
- According to Elena Faithhold, there is a red dragon devasting parts of her land (Nidalia)
- Strahd had a red dragon in his castle (killed by Soth in KotBR) (but could be back as a dracolich)
- another dreamlike dragon in Forgotten Terror
- and of course there is Ebb, Azalin’s shadow dragon, with his mate (Darkon) (Gaz 2)
Where is that tarnished dragon? I can't find it in TFC.

Sorry, that was in the K's Terror from above.

DeepShadow of FoS · Post by **DeepShadow of FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:33 am

Joël of the FoS wrote:
DeepShadow of FoS wrote:
Joël of the FoS wrote: - a Tarnished Dragon from the Forgotten Children netbook
- According to Elena Faithhold, there is a red dragon devasting parts of her land (Nidalia)
- Strahd had a red dragon in his castle (killed by Soth in KotBR) (but could be back as a dracolich)
- another dreamlike dragon in Forgotten Terror
- and of course there is Ebb, Azalin’s shadow dragon, with his mate (Darkon) (Gaz 2)
Where is that tarnished dragon? I can't find it in TFC.
Sorry, that was in the K's Terror from above.

Ah, I see. I can't find that for download anywhere. Do we have it?

Joël of the FoS · Post by **Joël of the FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:06 pm

Check your emails

DeepShadow of FoS · Post by **DeepShadow of FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:58 pm

Okay, so Grezanletyr, the tarnished copper dragon, is making a lair for himself in Forlorn after being sucked in for killing his mate out of sheer greed. Not a bad backstory--I especially like the gypsy not-quite-a-curse--and he's small and weak enough as dragons go to justify a small lair in a wilderness like that. Darn, it'd be nice if he could turn unto human form, but we can't give that ability to all dragons in RL just so they can hide.

For that matter, VRGttMists talked about mist-creatures as a way to hide dragons...and Grezanletyr already has a strong Craving....

I'll keep this in mind. I've got a PC IMC who has dragon-related powers, ancestry and items, and I wanted to find some appropriate adventure fodder. In particular, she has a pendant whose powers are not fully awakened.

DeepShadow of FoS · Post by **DeepShadow of FoS** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:45 pm

The Giamarga wrote:The only other mention of a dragon in RL that i know of is from the TSR trading card for Hoelgar Arnuttson. Hoelgar got canonized in Gaz 2 (though with a typo: he became a Brd instead of a Brb), so the Golden Eyed Youth is at least semi-canon.

Here's a thought: what if the error was in the original? I might like him better as a bard....

This dragon is a very young golden dragon who entered Ravenloft on the heels of Hoelgar after the killing of his entire brood by Hoelgar and his men. I daresay he travelled in human form and lost his memories when he entered Darkon and has forgotten that he is a dragon at all.

Here's an alternative: dragon's taken full advantage of the water breathing and is in the Sea of Sorrows, gobbling up fish. He's gotta be about the size of a heavy warhorse by now--my math puts him at Young, not Very Young--and all those HD are gonna need feeding beyond what goes into a human's mouth. Hence Hoelgar is in a harbor town, but that's where the trail ended when he lost his memory.

In one of TSR 1993 trading cards, they introduce Hoelgar Arnutsson, a (2E) Berserk fighter, who is later mentioned as Watchmaster of Martira Bay in the Bleak House Boxed Set. On the card it says that he slew an entire brood of gold dragons with his men. But one of the young dragons could flee. When the last adult dragon - it's mother i believe - died it cursed Hoelgar to die "when the golden-eyed youth wields the silver blade". Hoelgar followed the fleeing young dragon when the Mists took them both.

Okay, so this was 15 years ago IRL, if we use 1-to-1 ratio that's a 15 year old dragon, BUT the card lists this as history, so I feel justified adding another 5 years or so to the dragon's age.

Apparently he then traveled the breadth of Ravenloft for 20 years until he settled in Martira Bay and probably forgot who he was following and why due to Darkon's special power.

...okay, so we agree on the math. Why do you have the dragon as Very Young after 20 years? VY ends at 15 years.

He also apparently got level drained severely as he had 10 levels on the trading card and has only 8 levels in the latest 3E mention in Gazetteer2 (which also falsely lists him as Brd8, which was probably meant to be Brb8. I'd make him a middle aged Brb4/Ftr4 or Brb2/Ftr4/Frenzied Berserker2)

And here's where I have my own idea: IMC Hoelgar was always a bard, and he was controlled by his intelligent uber-sword. The berserker persona was the sword's. For that matter, the gold dragon's curse was on the sword, not the wielder, but Hoelgar still thinks it was meant for him.

So assuming that the Youth was only a wyrmling when entering Ravenloft there's now a young gold dragon with a mission loose in semi-canon Ravenloft. (I'd make him a young gold dragon Avenger1) As gold dragons can shapechange into humans (and animals) the young dragon probably spent most of his time in human shape. Now when he enters Darkon in pursuit of Hoelgar, Darkon's memory modification power will set in. Would he then perhaps forget that he is a dragon ?

And here I'm gonna veer again: the dragon was in Darkon for a while, but his memories returned during a swim (who can tell where a domain border is in the water?!) and he's avoided the place ever since. He's taken discretionary voyages onto various lands in polymorphed form, but for the most part has remained isolated. This isolation ended about ten years ago when a group of fisherman had caught enough sight of him to start leaving offerings, which has led to regular contact, which has led to actual worship. He's got his own cult following; not sure what domain I'll put him in.

Did I mention that Hoelgar has a (Gold) Dragon Slayer greatsword on the '93 card. This is far more powerful than a simple 3E dragon bane weapon, doing (in 2E) double damage to dragons (which would translate to the 3E bane property), but triple damage to gold dragons. Hoelgar would of course have forgotten even that. Bleak House mentions that he has an extensive weapon collection but doesn't mention the sword specifically, which fits with that. Perhaps his collecting comes from a subconcious wish to regain his lost sword, or mayhap he's searching for the Silver Blade...

IMC it'll be the former, but Hoelgar is actually searching for the lost sword to destroy it, as an act of redemption.

Now if one or both of these weapons were intelligent, that would add a whole new dimension to the story. This could also explain how a mere 10th level Berserk with his gang can kill a whole brood of gold dragons. This leads to an interesting question: Do intelligent weapons fall under Darkon's curse too?

What if they were the same weapon? The curse will be lifted when the gold-eyed youth takes up the dragonslaying sword.

I also imagine he had a rather large band of compatriots. But what would drive such people even attempt to kill a whole brood of dragons?

The crushing ego of an intelligent sword 10 levels too early for them. Problem solved![/quote]

Hazgarn · Post by **Hazgarn** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:21 am

On the topic of dragons in Ravenloft, I thought I'd share a couple of legends that might fit the theme:

The Aitvaras wrote: In many cases, this Lithuanian creature is described as having the appearance of a rooster while indoors and the appearance of a dragon outdoors. An Aitvaras will lodge itself in a house and will most often refuse to leave. It brings both good and bad luck to the inhabitants of the house. Aitvaras provide their adopted home with stolen gold and grain, often getting the household into trouble. According to many, an Aitvaras can be purchased from the devil - the price being that person's soul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aitvaras

The Legend of Melusine wrote:It tells how Elynas, the King of Albany (an old name for Scotland) went hunting one day and came across a beautiful lady in the forest. She was Pressyne, mother of Melusine. He persuaded her to marry him but she agreed, only on the promise — for there is often a hard and fatal condition attached to any pairing of fay and mortal — that he must not enter her chamber when she birthed or bathed her children. She gave birth to triplets. When he violated this taboo, Pressyne left the kingdom, together with her three daughters, and traveled to the lost Isle of Avalon.

The three girls — Melusine, Melior, and Palatyne — grew up in Avalon. On their fifteenth birthday, Melusine, the eldest, asked why they had been taken to Avalon. Upon hearing of their father's broken promise, Melusine sought revenge. She and her sisters captured Elynas and locked him, with his riches, in a mountain. Pressyne became enraged when she learned what the girls had done, and punished them for their disrespect to their father. Melusine was condemned to take the form of a serpent from the waist down every Saturday. In other stories, she takes on the form of a mermaid.

Raymond of Poitou came across Melusine in a forest in France, and proposed marriage. Just as her mother had done, she laid a condition, that he must never enter her chamber on a Saturday. He broke the promise and saw her in the form of a part-woman part-serpent. She forgave him. Only when, during a disagreement with her, he called her a "serpent" in front of his court, did she assume the form of a dragon, provided him with two magic rings and flew off, never to return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine

The Giamarga · Post by **The Giamarga** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:17 am

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:
The only other mention of a dragon in RL that i know of is from the TSR trading card for Hoelgar Arnuttson. Hoelgar got canonized in Gaz 2 (though with a typo: he became a Brd instead of a Brb), so the Golden Eyed Youth is at least semi-canon.
We didn't. link looks fine to me... try again.

(And I don't intend to crop it again if I can help it. Server space is cheap nowadays...)

I get : "The topic or post you requested does not exist"

The Giamarga · Post by **The Giamarga** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:24 am

DeepShadow of FoS wrote:Here's a thought: what if the error was in the original? I might like him better as a bard....

He's described more thoroughly in Bleak House and elsewhere. He has a weapons collection and is a big bully and since he is chief of the watch they have become more of a street gang of enforcers. The old trading card mentions that he is a 2E fighter 10 with the berserker kit , wields a dragonslayer great sword and wears heavy armour.

While in 3E all that is mentioned is Hoelgar Arnuttson (Brd8).

I'll go with the older sources here.

Here's the text from the trading card:
Possessions: bronze plate, helm, greatsword +3, dragonslayer (probably gold)
Background: Hoelgar and his warriors slew an entire brood of gold dragons, save one fugitive. Its mother, as she died, cursed Hoelgar to utter destruction when "the golden eyed youth wields the silver blade". Hoelgar followed the youth, intending to slay it before the curse could be fulfilled and became trapped in Ravenloft.

His extrapolated stats from the 2E trading card are: AL CE; Str 15 Dex 14- Con 15-18.

The Giamarga · Post by **The Giamarga** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:48 am

You're right about the age and the crushing ego of the sword though. But I still like my Hoelgar as a Ftr4/Brb2/FrenziedBerserker2. Why would the sword choose a weak bard as it's wielder when it can revel in the mad combat frenzy of a berserker?

Also i like having the silver blade as a different weapon, perhaps one the youth found in Ravneloft, perhaps one that he took from his mother's hoard. And while i can see The Golden Eyed Youth swimming around in the sea for a while, I quite like the idea of a young man adventurer who discovers that he is more than he seems. It fits better with the prophecy of his mother. As for nourishment, gold dragons consume gems iirc and thus don't neccesarily need large amounts of meat.

I also like the idea that this conflict of amnesiacs is also a conflict between two intelligent swords. (Which raises an interestig question: will the swords become amnesiac too in Drakon?)

I'll have to polish up my notes on Hoelgar and The Golden Eyed Youth and post them sometime.

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Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

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