Firearms in Ravenloft

[HuManBing]

One final note:

D&D is the sort of setting where at higher levels, PCs could feasibly take dozens of full-damage hits from arrows and still survive. This causes real thematic problems when it comes to firearms, which usually propel a bullet with enough penetrating force to take out any organs or essential body structures in its path. High-powered bullets also usually wave aside most rigid armor. (Modern effective body armor typically distorts or shatters upon impact, intentionally dissipating the bullet's energy. It's still extremely painful to get hit by a bullet, even if your body armor stops it cold - it's been described as being hit on your bare skin with a hammer.)

There have been a few rare situations where gunpowder weapons were low-powered, and sufficiently heavy plate armor could withstand shots from these weapons.

Without getting too maths-heavy, another way to simulate the power of bullets is to have a wounding multiplier. Give a bullet a certain amount of damage range, and then whatever makes it through cover, DR, and other armor effects, gets multiplied by a number once it hits flesh.

However, the high-heroic cinematic assumption of D&D is that most high-level players will shrug off pointblank shots with ranged weapons. In order to make gunpowder weapons deadly enough that a gun pointed in threat would freeze a PC, you'll need to do some rebalancing. Other game systems have much more modest HP totals for their PCs than D&D.

[vipera aspis]

This still pulls back to the notion of having no actual description of physical damage being inflicted: until the character in question reaches 10 HP or less.

For instance: Boris rolls a 17 and Natasha understands that with his modifiers; it is a successful roll. She asks him to roll for damage and he gets an eight. She then describes it as the shot "blasts from the rifle and rings explode from the chainmail on the shouting guard's left arm as he rushes for cover"
She then deducts eight hit points from his total

[Nathan of the FoS]

In fairness, in the time frame Ravenloft is most like, firearms had a LOT less stopping power/force than they do . The stories about Blackbeard's final battle should be taken with a big grain of salt, of course, but he supposedly took five musket balls and more than twenty sword cuts before he went down for good.

[MichaelTumey]

While I was initially reluctant to allow guns in my game, I've eased back somewhat, especially finding the Pathfinder rules for gun use as not imbalancing. However, being able to hit targets in the first range increment as a ranged touch attack, makes guns more effective (at least at single shot) compared to a bow, crossbow or other standard missile weapon.

Regarding the points on peasants and crossbows. It is also true that peasants with guns are an equalizing force in the game. And historically guns are easier to learn and use by the peasantry, perhaps more easily than using a crossbow. In Japan, when the Portuguese first brought the arquebus in country, the samurai were the first to incorporate it's use as a specialized samurai weapon. And this remained true for the first 20 years of it's use in Japan, however, as it was during the Sengoku Period (century of war), Nobunaga began training his peasants to be the gunbearers in war, and was the first to use rotating lines of gunners with 3 lines allowing for continuous firing at opposing forces. Nobunaga won a major battle against an overwhelming force of cavalry with his peasant gunners in the late 1500's.

In Japan at that time, the preferred peasant weapon was the arquebus musket.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I prefer the old 2e Gothic Earth rules for firearms myself. Namely that armor doesn't offer any sort of protection against firearms (except enhancement bonuses) and any damage dice that come up at the maximum are re-rolled and added to the total. Where I differ is that special materials--mithral, adamantine, dragonhide, etc.--offer full protection, as does padded, (studded) leather, and hide armors. Basic ballistics science states that if something can absorb and disperse the energy of a round, it offers better protection than something that works by deflection (i.e., metal). Such weak armor isn't exactly protective to begin with but it's better than nothing. Plus thick hides in many African animals (especially elephants and rhinos) proved more than a match for smaller caliber rounds until the Magnum round was invented.

None of this applies to early firearms, like the ones in Ravenloft, for a couple of reasons. The first is that it would take away from the flavor of the more advanced domains. The second is that early firearms were not that much more powerful than composite bows, but they're ease of use and cheaper manufacturing costs were what really spelled the end of heavy armor. That's not to say a good shot (read: critical hit) isn't lethal, but the physics, materials, and history, don't support the same degree of lethality. It wasn't even until the American Civil War that firearms really began to mature into the lethality we associate them with today.

[HuManBing]

I'm playing GURPS rules, so this somewhat academic for d20. But most PCs have 10 HP, and even the highest specimens of humanity will be unlikely to exceed 15 HP in total. At 0 HP, a PC is immobilized. At each full multiple of HP below zero, the PC must make Health checks or die. Once the PC reaches 5x(max HP) below zero, death is inevitable.

Being knocked unconscious or otherwise immobilized is MUCH more common than outright death in GURPS than in d20. I use optional bleeding rules so that wounds need to be stabilized or else death will follow well within an hour and oftentimes within ten minutes of bleeding out.

Pistols do anywhere from 1d6 to 2d6-1 damage, multiplied by 1.5 after penetrating armor. (And the heaviest plate metal armors would be around DR 8, with most armors closer to DR 4.) They're light, concealable, and capable of wounding a lightly armored enemy at short range.

Muskets do more in the range of 4d6 damage, multiplied by x2 after penetrating armor. They're long, heavy, inaccurate, and capable of grievously injuring even an armored enemy if they can hit.

Rifles do around 4d6 (x1.5) to 5d6 (x1.5), but have a much higher accuracy and range. They're long, heavy, accurate, and can grievously injure an armored enemy.

Shotguns would do around 1d6 or 1d6+1 per pellet, but fire around 7 to 9 pellets per cartridge. They're long, heavy, and devastating at short range, but their accuracy and effectiveness taper off quickly. Also, because each pellet hits armor separately, they do much less damage against armored enemies. Against unarmored enemies, they can outright kill at short ranges, and wound at mid ranges. At long ranges they may nick or clip an enemy.

[vipera aspis]

So okay then boils and ghouls: how common and to what tech lever are firearms in your games?

Mine verge on the realm of steampunk(with steel instead of brass) in some domains but they're ALWAYS custom minus a few sets made for certain armed forces. I like that my players love having them.

Few things were as cool as having the grim cleric run out of spells, pulling out a pair of rune covered revolvers and blazing away into the chest of Alfred Timothy.

[Dark Angel]

My game has long arms as common as melee weapons in certain domains. The biggest change is the cost. The crappy hand match arquebus is almost as expensive as the flintlock musket. However, they are no where near each other in range, damage, accuracy, or rate of fire. One is available in Barovia and other like tech realms while the musket is only made in Paridon and rarely sold. Besides I make things more expensive by cutting back on the amount of treasure the group gets. Other firearms are generally cheaper and they are way more common (and more widely manufactured). There are no major firearm distributors and all are still (more or less) hand made.

Here is my chart (hopefully it looks good and makes sense).

Code: Select all

Item	Rof	Weight	Size	Range (yards)	Damage	Price (gp)	CL
Hand Match Arquebus4	1/4	10	M	40/100/150*	1d10/1d10	175	7+
Matchlock Arquebus4, 5	1/3	10	M	50/150/210	1d10/1d10**	100	8+
Matchlock Caliver4, 5	1/3	11	M	40/80/240	1d8/1d8**	80	8+
Matchlock Musket (w/ rest) 4, 5	1/3	20	L	60/120/360	1d12/1d12**	90	8+
Wheellock Arquebus3, 5	1/2	8	M	50/100/300	1d10/1d10**	140	8+
Wheellock Belt Pistol3, 5	1/2	3	S	15/30/45	1d8/1d8**	50	8+
Wheellock Horse Pistol3, 5	1/2	4	S	20/40/60	1d10/1d10**	60	8+
Snaplock Belt Pistol2, 5	1/2	3	S	15/30/45	1d8/1d8**	30	9+
Snaplock Horse Pistol2, 5	1/2	4	S	20/40/60	1d10/1d10**	40	9+
Snaplock Musket2, 5	1/2	14	M	70/130/390	1d12/1d12**	120	9+
Flintlock Belt Pistol1, 5	1/2	3	S	20/40/60	1d8/1d8**	60	10+
Flintlock Blunderbuss Pistol1, 5	1/2	6	S	10/20/40	1d6/1d6***	70	10+
Flintlock Blunderbuss1, 5	1/2	10	M	15/30/60	1d8/1d8***	40	10+
Flintlock Carbine1, 5	1/2	8	M	50/100/275	1d10/1d10**	130	10+
Flintlock Horse Pistol1, 5	1/2	4	S	25/50/75	1d10/1d10**	80	10+
Flintlock Musket1, 5	1/2	12	M	75/150/400	1d12/1d12**	180	10+

*Range penalties double for hand match weapons, medium is at -4 and long is at -10. **When maximum die number is rolled (i.e. an 8 on a d8), the attacker rolls again and keeps adding the damage until the max number is no longer rolled. That final number is the damage roll from one shot. ***When Blunderbuss weapons hit at short range only, roll 1d4 to determine the number of shots that hit and roll that number of damage dice. At medium range, it can hit one or two times to all targets within 3 feet of the target. At long range, it can hit targets once up to five feet away from the primary target. Blunderbusses do not roll repeated damage dice like most other firearms. 1Flintlocks misfire on a natural roll of 1 2Snaplocks misfire on a natural roll of 1, 2, or 3 (Unless shooter is a firearms specialist, then it is a 1 or 2) 3Wheellocks misfire on a natural roll of 1 or 2 (Unless shooter is a firearms specialist, then just a 1 is needed) 4Matchlocks and the Hand Match Arquebus misfire on a natural roll of 1, 2, or 3 (6 or less in wet conditions) (Unless shooter is a firearms specialist, then chance drops down to a roll of 1 or 2 and 1-4 in wet conditions) 5This gun can ignore physical armors (not Dex or magical modifiers, etc) at varying ranges. At short range, all physical armor is ignored. At medium range, armor class is penalized by up to five points. At long range, armor class is penalized by only two points.
Firearm Misfires- When a firearm misfires, 2d6 are rolled. If a 2 or a 3 is rolled, the weapon explodes for 2d6 (1d6 if save vs. death is successful) points of damage. If a 4-7 is rolled, the barreled is fouled and gun is useless until it is cleaned (a process that takes 5d6 minutes). On an 8 or higher, a hangfire occurs. The weapon will go off in 1d3 rounds and can still hit the target if weapon is still trained on the target. Otherwise, the gun is unaffected.

[Dark Angel]

Yeah, it does not look good....

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah, it does not look good....

Added a "Code" tag for you. That should help you align it, if desired

[Dark Angel]

Yeah, it does not look good....

Added a "Code" tag for you. That should help you align it, if desired

Thanks, I read that so fast I didn't catch the fact that you were not telling me what to, you already did it. Looks better already, thanks Gonzoron!

[High Priest Mikhal]

So okay then boils and ghouls: how common and to what tech lever are firearms in your games?

Quick answer: Not very.

Long answer: The nature of early firearms makes them unreliable and if the powder gets wet it's useless, so my players generally didn't use them (not in a campaign now, going on past ones). Plus it costs a feat to become proficient; worth it if you don't have access to a lot of weapons and/or have a low Strength score (wizards on both counts, mainly) but otherwise there are better options. Plus the fact that they're L-O-U-D! Not a good thing in campaigns that featured less break-down-the-door style adventures and more stealth-and-cunning-get-farther. Not that there weren't some pretty violent combat scenes (got to give the warrior classes their due), but a bow, crossbow, sling, or any throwing weapon is going to be quieter and accomplish the job just as well. Sometimes better since all those except crossbows add Strength modifiers.

As for tech, basically the wheel-lock and flintlock pistols and muskets described in the setting core book, as well as parthian rapiers, blunderbusses, and even cannons for a final adventure where the House on Gryphon Hill was demolished (the group hated Godefroy, so what better way to end things then with his destruction?). Other than the cannons I stuck with the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) philosophy of mechanics.

[The Giamarga]

While we're comparing notes for firearm rules, I want to leave these 3.5 d20 versions here:

For 3.5 fantasy firearms rules there's the web enhancement to Chaositech. and also Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms firearms PDF aside from the basic 3.5 DMG firearms rules.

But neither offer any armor penetration rules. Nor does D20 modern. Firearms generally have more than 1 damage die in D20 modern and IK though.

As for houserules another one that I've often seen is the open ended damage roll (i.e. if you roll max damage, roll the same die again) for firearms.

...from the Gunslinger thread

And of course there's the weapon rules from the excellent Ravenloft Renaissance site

[The Giamarga]

I'm playing GURPS rules, so this somewhat academic for d20. But most PCs have 10 HP, and even the highest specimens of humanity will be unlikely to exceed 15 HP in total. At 0 HP, a PC is immobilized. At each full multiple of HP below zero, the PC must make Health checks or die. Once the PC reaches 5x(max HP) below zero, death is inevitable.

Being knocked unconscious or otherwise immobilized is MUCH more common than outright death in GURPS than in d20. I use optional bleeding rules so that wounds need to be stabilized or else death will follow well within an hour and oftentimes within ten minutes of bleeding out.

The fact that D20 PCs almost never fall unconsious or cannot do dying speeches is sad. The Alexandrian's optional Death & Dying rules noticed that too and offers a nice alternative system while not deviating to far from the d20 default. Make sure to read the history of his house rules at the bottom.

The 3.5 Vitality & Wounds system and the PF Wounds & Vigor system work even more similar to what you describe for GURPS.

[shizuo]

From the game the iv'e played the firearms can deflect its bullet but it depends on what bullet you use like if he has a bigger and weavy bullet then he can deflect it but if the foe has bigger and he has smaller then he cant.