A temporary end of Ravenloft?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

That's pretty darn good. Especially when 13 of the 20 products are really damn good (with 3 of the 20 not being out yet so really it's 13 of 17). Can the original line make the same claim to quality not factoring nostalgia?

Good question. With all the bile being loaded on WW lately, I think it's only fair to consider the embarrassments of the original line in comparison.

* The Grim Harvest series had a little Vistana boy who could read the tarroka, and loaded down the Talons with magical gear that ran against any previous depiction of Falkovnia. You've got the 3E folks to thank for retconning that into the Talon bracers.

* The Requiem boxed set was an embarrassment along the same lines of HoL and CoD--a great idea poorly executed. Let's not forget that the PC's are supposed to complete a critical part of the included adventure by casting sleep, charm, or hold on an undead.

* Have people forgotten the clamor that was raised regarding the destruction of Il Aluk and the renaming of Darkon?

* We all miss the adventures, no doubt, but how many of those adventures didn't require the DM strongarming the PC's onto the railroad cars? Adam's Wrath was probably the worst, requiring the PC's sink their ship in the first encounter, die in the third, have no recourse but to do what Mordy asks, and then get attacked by hags again because of mistaken identity.

* Speaking of Adam's Wrath, did any other DM's think that "Helpful Hans" needed to quietly disappear and never be heard from again?

Were these elements dealt with? Sure. I'm just saying that there were errors from the beginning (sheesh, remember Feast of Goblyns?!). How is 3E any different?

[Shadowsworn]

Good point. Hour of the Knife and Feast of Goblyns, despite having good ideas, both relied on railroading the players, and Feast of Goblyns was kind of, um, exessive imo.

I can't speak to the other examples as I don't own any of them.

Whereas most of the 3rd Edition products, especially the gazetteers, are excellent.

Oh, and some of your ideas are really great Jester.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

It's kind of the nature of the beast, but lots of the 2e adventures were railroad-y.

Relying on killing the party with no save: Adam's Wrath, From the Shadows, The Created, Hour of the Knife, The Forgotten Terror

Relying on being mainpulated by pretty obvious bad guys: Feast of Goblyns, Roots of Evil, Forgotten Terror

Relying on shipwrecks: Neither Man nor Beast, Adam's Wrath

Nevertheless, some of the of these had great ideas in them.


I had written up a whole post defending 3e RL based on % of horrible products in 2e vx. % of horrible products in 3e and it got eaten when my computer decided to reboot.

But let me just remind everyone of some of the misteps in 2e:
Grim Harvest trilogy
Light in the Belfry
Roots of Evil (kinda crappy IMHO)
Vecna
Death of a Darklord
Lord of the Necropolis
Book of Crypts (one good adventure and a bunch of crap)
Thoughts of Darkness
Circle of Darkness

It wasn't all Carnival and Castles Forlorn back then.

In 3e, we got things we'd been clamouring for, for years. 5 Wonderful Gaz's. A beautiful Tarroka deck. The return of Masque. VRGttWD is something people have asked about for as long as I can remember.

CoD was 3 years ago. RLPH was 2 years ago. Since then, things have been pretty darn good, I think. Would I love more products, yes. But if they can maintain the current level of quality, I'll settle for less, as long as they keep coming.

[maraudar]

Grim Harvest trilogy
Light in the Belfry
Roots of Evil (kinda crappy IMHO)
Vecna
Death of a Darklord
Lord of the Necropolis
Book of Crypts (one good adventure and a bunch of crap)
Thoughts of Darkness
Circle of Darkness

I'll agree with you on the quality of some of those Gonzoron. Yes 2e does seem to lead you around by the nose sometimes but they had a lot of good things come out of it as well. As for 3e, I convert those to 2e because I cant stand the 3e and 3.5 system (and I'm stubborn about chgange ). Now from a reading standpoint 3e and later is hands down better written than 2e in most cases but seems to me to lack something in play. Just an opinion. Hopefully the products that do come out continue to be well wrote so that I can at least enjoy reading them before I force them to de-evolve


Maraudar

[Jester of the FoS]

You forgot Forged of Darkness. And half the novels were poor too. Oh, and there is a shipwreck in Bleak House as well.

Heck, as I've said in my reviews even the Black Box was pretty poor. A half-describd setting missing many of the big rules (curses, Power Checks, madness), only detailing around half the setting leaving the rest a mystery. Major NPCs were missing while other were described twice and extra ones were kept in on whims. The lands fit together poorly and the map is ass with hideous colours. And this was the start of the setting.
There is a reason it needed a full reprint four years later (cheaply done with re-used book covers and recycled interiour art).

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

You forgot Forged of Darkness. And half the novels were poor too. Oh, and there is a shipwreck in Bleak House as well.

I gave a lot of the novels the benefit of the doubt, since I liked them. And forged of darkness was pretty reviled, but it did introduce some nice stuff. the only problem I had with it is that everything in it was so heavily cursed that none of it was usuable by PC's unless you wanted to kill the party.

Heck, as I've said in my reviews even the Black Box was pretty poor. A half-describd setting missing many of the big rules (curses, Power Checks, madness), only detailing around half the setting leaving the rest a mystery

I'm pretty sure power checks were in there from the start. There's a fairly large chapter on them. Curses I'm not so sure about, but I think they were there too. Madness is a big rule now, but it's only "missing" from the Black Box because it wasn't thought of until Forbidden Lore.

And I like the maps.

I agree about the missing details. But look how good that worked out in the end. If they had decided on who the lords of Forlorn and the Nightmare Lands were up front, we probably wouldn't have seen the excellent fleshing out those two domains got in their boxed sets.

[Le Noir Faineant]

IMO, three more modules like, say, Champions of Darkness or the Requiem series, and the line would be dead in any case... So, better if they take more time balancing and rewriting the material...

[Jack of Tears]

>>And forged of darkness was pretty reviled, but it did introduce some nice stuff. the only problem I had with it is that everything in it was so heavily cursed that none of it was usuable by PC's unless you wanted to kill the party. <<


See, now, I really liked Forged of Darkness. What one must realize is that the items were not meant for player consumption. As with the Book of Artifacts, the pieces therein weren't meant to be toys, but vehicles for adventures. Now, if the party decided to pick up the objects and use them after overcoming the previous owner(s), that is the consequence of their own stupidity. (or desperation, which can at times be a GMs best friend)


As for the Black Box, while it might not seem amazing and innovative now, at the time it was quite astounding. The advice therein on building atmosphere alone was worth the price of admission. Of all the setting books I own, the original black book is the only one I still go back and read regularly for inspiration. Let us not forget the most important measure of its success ... the book was excellent enough to inspire many a tallented gamer to new heights and lead to one of the most ecclectic fan bases to be seen under the DnD banner. (for me, this was the motivation which made me pick up the GM shield)

[ScS of the Fraternity]

I object to the charge that Lord of the Necropolis was a bad book.

In my opinion, Lord of the Necropolis was a great book - from the moment I picked it up off the shelf, I knew I couldn't put it down.

Okay, sure, it was noncanon - but it was an excellently written book. It really captured the essence of Azalin and his struggle, and though the details are different, it still holds true to the character.

[Shoon VII]

As for the Black Box, while it might not seem amazing and innovative now, at the time it was quite astounding. The advice therein on building atmosphere alone was worth the price of admission. Of all the setting books I own, the original black book is the only one I still go back and read regularly for inspiration. Let us not forget the most important measure of its success ... the book was excellent enough to inspire many a tallented gamer to new heights and lead to one of the most ecclectic fan bases to be seen under the DnD banner. (for me, this was the motivation which made me pick up the GM shield)

wel said. but i dont think you will find one person on these boeards who would speak ill of the Black Box.

[Jack of Tears]

>>wel said. but i dont think you will find one person on these boeards who would speak ill of the Black Box.<<


Well, my comment was in response to one made by David of the Frat, who gave the black box some poor reviews. (follow the threat up about half a dozen posts)

[Jester of the FoS]

I was exaggerating for emphasis, I know that at the time it was inovative and astounding but there were still some huge flaws.
I'm pretty much hastily summarizing my review from here:
clicky

[Dimitri Mazieres]

For what is worth, I'm quite pleased with what has been released. Between the core rulerbooks (Campaign Setting and DoD), VRA and the five Gaz released I'm more than satisfied with the material available. The new VR guides and LoB are quite a boon, but I feel like I have all that I need to run a RL campaign with these. Sure, it would be great if more Gazetteers and LoB volumes were released but (and this is a strictly personal opinion) I don't care much about the Islands of Terror besides the Shadowborn Cluster, and I can live without that one. I'm just happy to have the Core detailed

Of course, it would be much, much better if the cut material from the Gazetteers were released as Web Enhncements

(BTW, didn't the developers said that they would release it after the holidays?)

[tec-goblin]

I have an idea about what could happen if WW stops supporting RL. See it in this thread:
General Forum -> Back to Wizards?
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... php?t=1902

[Le Noir Faineant]

I think the way WW will handle the WoD and RL problem, *if there is one*, is already hinted: RL might develop more from *Darkon* to *Richelmulot/Mordent*, from medieval to renaissance and victorian fantasy. (That MotJD was preferred to another Gaz may be a hint in that direction.)

Given that this seems to be what the *engaged fa base* prefers, I think there will be no problem for WW to run both lines at the same time...