Comments/suggestions on Jester's rules (5e)

[Jester of the FoS]

I don't think the spells should necessarily be out-of-list for warlocks. Warlocks know very few spells.
Yet, you make an interesting point about haste/gaseous form. Some of these could be warlock abilities instead of spells.

Warlock pacts don't grant spells. They're not spells you automatically know.
Pacts add spells to your spell list that you still have to choose from your limited spells. So they have to be from other lists.

I might drop black tentacles though and give a mist power with similar benefits, where I can add the flavour I like.

[alhoon]

Warlock pacts don't grant spells. They're not spells you automatically know.
Pacts add spells to your spell list that you still have to choose from your limited spells. So they have to be from other lists.

So my NPC warlock companion is played wrong?

EDIT: "The following spells are added to the warlock spell list for you."
Yeap, you're right.
Oh well, I'll make a feat to allow the pact spells to auto-get in your known list. Overpowered? Nah, you still cast just a few spells.

[Jester of the FoS]

Warlock pacts don't grant spells. They're not spells you automatically know.
Pacts add spells to your spell list that you still have to choose from your limited spells. So they have to be from other lists.

So my NPC warlock companion is played wrong?

EDIT: "The following spells are added to the warlock spell list for you."
Yeap, you're right.
Oh well, I'll make a feat to allow the pact spells to auto-get in your known list. Overpowered? Nah, you still cast just a few spells.

I didn't notice that until I started designing the subclass. Doing some design always helps me learn the system.

Oh, and mist pact revised with detailed powers. Just stumped on the starter power.
Maybe some future sigh. Or armour? A reactionary mist-form?

[alhoon]

General: I like it but I find it too... misty! I would like to see a bit more reality\space\time bending powers than foggy powers.

Suggestions:
For the Mist abduction feature: I would suggest you give this power a madness save and some other serious deliberating effects. The equivalent power from the fiend gives a ton of psychic damage.

For 6th lvl, I would prefer your earlier suggestion of haste, but only on yourself. Once per short rest. Instead of haste spell, I would suggest "bestow curse" or "nondetection".

[Jester of the FoS]

General: I like it but I find it too... misty! I would like to see a bit more reality\space\time bending powers than foggy powers.

I'll think on that.

For the Mist abduction feature: I would suggest you give this power a madness save and some other serious deliberating effects. The equivalent power from the fiend gives a ton of psychic damage.

The Mist power potentially lasts longer and, IIRC, it's usable more often, so that should balance with the lack of direct offence. Plus, I don't think every power *needs* to deal damage. The Mists doesn't seem like a damage dealing patron.

For 6th lvl, I would prefer your earlier suggestion of haste, but only on yourself. Once per short rest. Instead of haste spell, I would suggest "bestow curse" or "nondetection".

I'm reluctant to just give something that replicates a spell. That's not particularly unique or interesting.
A speed boost at level 1 would work, but that's just expeditious retreat.
Maybe some foresight power...

[alhoon]

I agree that mists don't seem damaging. Yet, hit by madness (roll on long term madness table) is not damage.

[Jester of the FoS]

Added Dark Powers checks. The document is currently sitting at 99 pages, but I still have eight Paths of Corruption to add. Plus details on gods and as many domains as I can write.

I opted to take out a few options. Some poisons and diseases I wrote, plus the more generic subclasses. I'm releasing that stuff on my blog: http://www.5mwd.com/gaming-blog/5e-content
I added it for the sake of adding more class options to the book, but they never seemed like the best fit.

Gonzoron has been editing things with me, but pretty soon I can open it up to the community for extra editing love.

[alhoon]

Ok, after reading the warlock of Mists fresh, and having made a couple of warlock NPCs, I have to say that while I like the choices of spells and the theme, the Mist warlock seems a bit... underpowered compared to the others. The 6th lvl ability for example, while useful, could just hop the warlock around at 15' when acquired.

NOTE: Of course, a warlock serving fiends or the God Brai... I mean old ones in Ravenloft has a whole different set of baggage.

[Jester of the FoS]

Ok, after reading the warlock of Mists fresh, and having made a couple of warlock NPCs, I have to say that while I like the choices of spells and the theme, the Mist warlock seems a bit... underpowered compared to the others. The 6th lvl ability for example, while useful, could just hop the warlock around at 15' when acquired.

NOTE: Of course, a warlock serving fiends or the God Brai... I mean old ones in Ravenloft has a whole different set of baggage.

I updated that a little while back, but never put it on the forum. Threw up my revised version just now.

The Mist Call power is very different than the existing ones. I wanted some movement/teleportation but didn't want it to be too similar to the fey patron or just getting a spell. Hence calling a mist a stepping while within, which is a little longer lasting that most of the other warlock features.

[alhoon]

I love, LOVE the relative time feature. Also, I like how finally there's a warlock that can do more than bombard enemies with spells and cantrips (detect thoughts, modify memory etc).

Question about the relative time feature: Can you act twice in a turn? I.e. let's assume you play at initiative 14, your buddy plays at initiative 11. Could you at say, turn 3 play at initiative count 14 and then go after your buddy at initiative 10 in the same round?

[Jester of the FoS]

I love, LOVE the relative time feature.

Glad you like it, as you pushing for time manipulation lit the fire under me to keep trying.
I wanted some time shiftyness but kept falling back to a haste style power, which is lame, being spell replication.

Question about the relative time feature: Can you act twice in a turn? I.e. let's assume you play at initiative 14, your buddy plays at initiative 11. Could you at say, turn 3 play at initiative count 14 and then go after your buddy at initiative 10 in the same round?

The intent is that the +/- proficiency is always active but you can trigger the second part at any time. But doing so removes the entire power for future combats.
I might have to make that clearer... Maybe "Once you change your initiative, you lose all benefits of this feature until you complete a short or long rest."

[Jester of the FoS]

Alhoon brought this up elsewhere:

There needs to be some mechanical way to ensure that a character with a madness wouldn't ignore his or her flaw. Bribing with inspiration is not enough in most cases and could make madness a beneficial quality if it just allows you an extra way to get inspiration.

Thoughts?
To me it feels a little like fear. Ideally, your players should just roleplay frightened, and fear checks should be rare (or use a carrot not a stick). Madness, especially if it is a long term condition, is a big character element that shouldn't necessarily cripple a PC. Death shouldn't be preferable to madness.

If flaws become too much of a beat stick, players will find flaws that are easy to ignore. If roleplay flaws is rewarded, players might be more willing to pick fun or evocative character flaws.

Still... sometimes you might need to punish the insane. Blanking on how at the moment...

[alhoon]

I would like to discuss this. It's a problem with the 5e madness format more than 5e Ravenloft.

What I mean is at the moment, your mad character has an extra way to get inspiration that he or she can ignore if it's not convenient to use.

Let me give an example:
Assume a character that got a fascination with his reflection in mirrors after a dramatic even. This character finds himself fighting along with his friends a group of enemies in a room with a huge mirror dominating the wall. And the character decides to not get inspiration by spending a round watching himself in the mirror rationalizing that he's in danger. After the battle finishes the character also decides to not look in the mirror because his mates may steal some of the loot. Only after every kind of risk is dealt with, the player describes the character standing in front of the mirror getting lost in his reflection.
So all in all, that dramatic event that broke the character's mind didn't have an adverse effect to the character.

If flaws become too much of a beat stick, players will find flaws that are easy to ignore. If roleplay flaws is rewarded, players might be more willing to pick fun or evocative character flaws.

Still... sometimes you might need to punish the insane. Blanking on how at the moment...

Well, a flaw has to be a flaw in my opinion, not a hidden-bonus. How to make flaws non-character breaking but still make a player to want to get rid of his madness instead of trying to lose horror saves for the extra bonus needs a bit of work.

As I mentioned in Dark Shadows, I believe going against madness or temptation should require an intelligence or wisdom save. If you lose that save you actually lose your inspiration. In essence giving it up to break away from your addiction, temptation, the voices whispering in your mind etc.
Certainly not game-breaking.

It should be also noted there a note like "The DM should feel free to give debilating effects or conditions to characters to portray their harrowing experiences and traumatized minds when the players try to abuse the system instead of roleplay the flaws"

[jules]

You might want to make a boo of 5th edition terror tracks for 5th edition ravenlof , maybe?

[Jester of the FoS]

I would like to discuss this. It's a problem with the 5e madness format more than 5e Ravenloft.
What I mean is at the moment, your mad character has an extra way to get inspiration that he or she can ignore if it's not convenient to use.

Well, a flaw has to be a flaw in my opinion, not a hidden-bonus. How to make flaws non-character breaking but still make a player to want to get rid of his madness instead of trying to lose horror saves for the extra bonus needs a bit of work.

Flaws are kinda sorta a bonus, being an extra way of gaining inspiration. However, that is dependent on the player RPing the flaw to the satisfaction of the DM. If the player isn't choosing to self-hinder themselves enough to the DM's satisfaction, then no inspiration needs to be awarded.

This feels like the gaming equivalent of a First World Problem. Yeah, the player is gaining advantage at an increased rate, but they're doing so by roleplaying more and bringing their flaw/madness/fear to the forefront. It's enriching the game.

As I mentioned in Dark Shadows, I believe going against madness or temptation should require an intelligence or wisdom save. If you lose that save you actually lose your inspiration. In essence giving it up to break away from your addiction, temptation, the voices whispering in your mind etc.
Certainly not game-breaking.

My fear is that it might make inspiration less appealing. Because the player might not want to roleplay a flaw or temptation they won't bother to do anything to gain inspiration that they will just lose anyway.
It's also adversarial. The DM is saying "you're roleplaying isn't good enough, so I'm taking something away. It generates a confrontation.

Let me give an example:
Assume a character that got a fascination with his reflection in mirrors after a dramatic even. This character finds himself fighting along with his friends a group of enemies in a room with a huge mirror dominating the wall. And the character decides to not get inspiration by spending a round watching himself in the mirror rationalizing that he's in danger. After the battle finishes the character also decides to not look in the mirror because his mates may steal some of the loot. Only after every kind of risk is dealt with, the player describes the character standing in front of the mirror getting lost in his reflection.
So all in all, that dramatic event that broke the character's mind didn't have an adverse effect to the character.

The alternative is that the character is greatly penalized by the presence of the mirror. The DM is essentially imposing a giant penalty just on them.
They have to stop playing the game and choose to be bored or risk punitive action.
Plus, if I were DMing that session, because the character didn't risk anything by becoming fascinated at the very end, I wouldn't award inspiration.

It should be also noted there a note like "The DM should feel free to give debilating effects or conditions to characters to portray their harrowing experiences and traumatized minds when the players try to abuse the system instead of roleplay the flaws"

Hrm, what about an outbreak of madness? If they repress their madness (i.e. don't roleplay) their madness intensely manifests and they gain a short or long term madness. So if they roleplay (and gain inspiration) they can offset penalties.