Lamest Dark Lord, and Possible Fixes...

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
Sylaire
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:27 pm
Location: Maine

Post by Sylaire »

cure wrote:It is a deep seated suspicion of mine that to do evil on a grand scale requires the conviction that one is doing good.
In truth, I really doubt that anyone really, truly thinks in their heart of hearts "I am evil" when actually being evil. Guilt is--at best--an afterwards condition.

I find it highly relevant that you use the word "conviction"--what is rarely pointed out is that fanaticism is inevitably at the core of large-scale evil; that is, the overwhelming belief that a particular viewpoint is correct, taken as a matter of faith so that any "proof" or "reason" to the contrary is simply ignored.
It is a misreading of history to view its worst men as being sociopaths. The orchestration of grand evils is by its essence a social activity, which is to say one requiring cooperation, and hence belief. What is monstrous about the Nazis is not that they are spiders, but rather that they are human. And all too human we should add.
Well, I'd agree and disagree with on those points. Clearly, no large group of humanity can be casually dismissed as sociopathic en masse. The Nazis, after all, included genuine fanatics (those who believed in the philosophy and would do any act in support of it), average believers (people who believed some or most of the philosophy and would fight in support of it), patriotic Germans (that is, individuals who believed that the National Socialists offered the best chance for a strong and meaningful restored Germany and considered this more important than any qualms they may or may not have had about their philosophies or methods), people moved by mob psychology, people who disagreed but not strongly enough to make a fuss, people who disagreed but were scared to make a fuss...and that's just a general smattering off the top of my head. Obviously, any great evil that is defined by a social movement requires complex factors of time, place, and personality.

However, I'd strongly disagree with characterizing the leaders of any such movement as having "reasons." Simply because behavior can be explained does not mean it can be justified--regardless of the causes or perceived causes of a person's beliefs, it does not mean that a sane individual would act in that fashion. A person who is capable of saying, "Yes, my beliefs/philosophies/political ambitions/social fears enable me to order the deaths of millions" is across some line somewhere, and I would argue that if such a person cannot be considered "insane" if not precisely "sociopathic" then there is truthfully no point in defining "normalcy" at all. Something is broken there. To wit, if Trotsky had been able to win out in the political struggle, or if the complex social and economic factors that led to Naziism gaining influence in 1930s Germany had not been in place, Stalin and Hitler, personally, would still have been madmen within their own scope of insanity. They merely would not have been the historically-defined monsters that they were.
So return to Vlad. There is no evidence that he demands his underlings to debase themselves before him like Azalin does.
Well, apart from the "branding every one of 'em on the forehead as his personal property" thing. I admit that I'm a bit of a disadvantage here, lacking the Falkovnia Gazetteer, which may flesh things out somewhat. But everything I have read on Drakov and Falkovnia indicates that Drakov is a man utterly obsessed with the desire to rule and control. His entire character is defined by his power-lust. As a former mercenary he craves respect as a king, a leader, a great man of power. This by itself does not make him a monster--indeed, it might instead have made him Napoleon. Yet instead it is coupled with a brutal sadism and a perception that the people of Falkovnia are, essentially, mere objects for him to do with as he wishes to achieve his own ends.

(As an aside, I'd actually point out that these two traits seem opposed to one another--a true sociopath would seem to lack sufficient empathy with his victims to be able to perceive their suffering to appreciate it on an aesthetic level. I'd suspect that Drakov's sadism is really more of an expression of his frustrated power-lust, a kind of "Look at me! See what utter and complete control I have over you! You live or die, suffer or feel relief solely at my whim!" thing.)
So let us say that he cherishes Falkovnians who distinguish themselves in their service to their country, culture, race and system through valorous feats of arms. Such men and women receive high honours at the hands of Vlad himself. They are noble warriors, fit of mind and fit of body, not the sneak thief rats of Richemulot, not the smiling, venemous waifs of Borca, not the effeminate flops of Dementlieu, not the death dealing tools of Lamordia and Darkon.

Vlad values hard work, honesty, strength, health, cooperation. Indeed he expects them of all Falkovnians. And he sees their essential enemies encircling Falkovnia. So what does he do? Break the choke hold. And what do his failures testify to? The desperate plight of virtue in a world filled with vice. The tragedy, as Vlad sees it, is that the rivers of blood so necessarily spilled in the defense of human virtue are no assurance of victory.

By all means Vlad revels in the slaughter of his wars for they are nothing less than the slaughter of the enemies of humanity. The tragedy is that he fails to realise that he is himself the enemy of the humanity that he boldly champions (or would boldly champion if he were not locked away in his land). And his curse is not really to fail as a conquerer. It is rather to fail in his quest to secure the good of his people . . . as he so mistakenly sees it.


The problem here is that "so let us say" leading off that phrase. To wit, we the players and DM's have to take the effort to change the Drakov as written to something else to make him comprehensible from a real-world perspective, to humanize him as it were. Of course, this is a thread about "possible fixes," and what you're doing is exactly that, restructuring the presently-existing Drakov and Falkovnia.

I'd especially suggest that you're doing an excellent job of fixing Falkovnia more than Drakov. One of the amazing weaknesses of the 2nd Ed. Drakov is the question of why the Falkovnians put up with this guy. At the risk of Godwin's Lawing this argument into oblivion, he's the Fuhrer (well, King-Fuhrer) but doesn't have any Nazis to lead. The real-world horror of Hitler wasn't Hitler the man, it was the nation of Germany infected by National Socialism. As currently written, the player empathizes with the common Falkovnian oppressed and brutalized by Drakov and his hawk-stepping Talons. In your revision, the common Falkovnian instead becomes part and parcel of his own oppression, and the question becomes for each individual Falkovnian how deeply has fanatical Drakovism sunk into their spirit, outweighing concerns of justice and decency (remember that the Dark Powers and their Powers Checks do apply an objective standard of good and evil to the behavior of people in Ravenloftian, freeing Falkovnia from the kind of complicated moral debates we see above).

I'd go one further and suggest that on some level, in his heart of hearts, the Drakov you describe knows that it is all a lie. That is, he's not a Falkovnian--Falkovnia exists for him, was actually created for him (one reason why, I suspect, the as-he-is-published Drakov is so cavalier with his treatment of his people; he regards them essentially as artifacts put there for him to do with as he chooses), and while all the people under him may one day feel the glory of Falkovnia uber alles as he succeeds, all his own victories will be merely dust, for he stands apart from it all in the end.
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

Sylaire,

Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking reply.

Yes, it is a fix, an interpretation, if you will, of Vlad, and one intended to bring him closer to our own historical experience.

Taking Vlad for a psychopathic sadist is certainly supported by, and even invited by, the facts. Yet that leaves us with the unsatisifying figure we have.

Ridding Vlad of his status of property owner of the Falkovnians is, I think easy, reasonable, and perfectly justifiable. The hawk brand identifies the Falkovnian not as personal property of Vlad, but rather identifies the Falkovnian with the state itself and the state itself is identified with Vlad. Vlad is the state and is the people. And the people are the state and are Vlad. Totalitarianism is utterly obsessed with the identification of the people with the leader and the state (fascism) or the leader and the state with the people (communism). And to be different, that is the ultimate crime, no less than high treason.

As to the question of reasons, reasons can be more or less reasonable, or more or less compelling/universal, or even more or less good. Genocides always have apologists who justify them or explain them away, and usually both. These apologists offer reasoned arguments. But those arguments cannot withstand the force of competing arguments and careful scrutiny. But in the absence of both, they stand very well, sadly to say. Today no shortage of people, average individuals and powerful individuals, are deniers of last centuries first holocaust, that of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. And without careful research and broad attention, these deniers will get away with their criminal complicity in that genocide. These people, like the original perpetators of the crime, are not insane. But they are assuredly evil and count our indifference as their most powerful ally.
The cure for what ails you
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Post by HuManBing »

I've sent out PMs to people who replied with particularly deep or considered thoughts on Drakov's backstory.

I'm currently about 1/4 of the way through a large-scale fanfic set on Krynn, detailing the backstory behind Vlad Drakov and how he came to be the way he is.

The central premise is indeed that he has the potential to be a good, honorable man, but the horrors of war-torn Thenol thrust him into a ruthless survivalist mindset at a young age and he can never quite put that aside.

The fan fiction is here, and it's primarily set on Taladas and Krynn, though I do plan on a good bit of Ravenloft-side development - especially giving a quasi-rational (though still misled) explanation for his warlike ways.
User avatar
WolfKook
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:10 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Bogotá, Colombia
Contact:

Post by WolfKook »

Maybe because of the current political winds in my country (Colombia), I've started seeing Drakov in a different way lately...

I will explain (And I apologize in advance for the political references): As you may know, the current president of my country is a former landowner known as Alvaro Uribe Velez, whose land was one of the targets of the guerrilla wars that have turned Colombia into a very unstable country for the last 50 years or so. The guerrillamen killed his father and constantly robbed his lands (Well, they would put it as if they were "collecting war taxes").

Now, Uribe's detractors (And here I have to say that in spite of what follows, I'm one of his many supporters) connect him with the creation of the paramilitary, an army that started as the landowners paid small forces of mercenaries to protect them from the guerrillas, and eventually ended up being as dangerous as they were (Hence my take on Drakov's backstory).

Anyway, Uribe eventually got political, and his unwillingness to submit to the whims of the guerrilla (As previous presidential candidates had done) eventually earned him the title of President of the Republic. His "strong hand" politics have proved very effective, and have prompted him to a previously unheard 91% popularity index, earning him his 2006 reelection (A figure previously unknown in Colombian Constitution, which was changed in his favor).

Now, the people of Colombia (myself included) see him as the only person able to guide and protect us, and a third reelection is almost imminent, if Uribe decides to run for it (There are no other political figures -except, perhaps, the recently rescued Ingrid Betancourt -who people trust enough to give them leadership of the country).

And if it's true that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, we're in trouble.

(Now, I don't know if my point is clear, though I certainly hope so)
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"
William Blake
Tykus
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:14 pm

Post by Tykus »

Ail wrote:-- The Headless Horseman
- The Phantom Lover, although with some changes.
- The House of Lament (sort of)
-
Alex
I actually just used the Phantom Lover in a recent adventure. The players had a hard time dealing with him even WITH the mistakes I was making (forgetting certain immunities and DRs). I got the impression (and went with it) is that he's a fey with at least the bogeyman template and has a strong indication of the shadow fey template. He's great for a recurring villlian in any campaign (even ones outside RL, which is what I'm running ATM)

Pretty soon, I'm going to have them encounter the Headless Horseman; who I believe was one of Drakov's illegitimate children and eventually cast aside (like so many are). He attempted to regain his father's attention and the DPs eventually stepped in. Now he has the recognition of his father but without a head, Drakov doesn't know that its one of his brood.
Hindsight is, after all, caused by a lack of foresight.

Death rates exceeded 100% in some towns.

Charles V spent most of his reign aging.

This was beginning of Empire, when Europeans felt the need to reach out and smack someone
Tykus
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:14 pm

Post by Tykus »

For all the arguments concerning Drakov and/or Tsien being the lamest DLs, I'm surprised King Doerdon (IIRC) and his laughing domain didn't get a mention. At least Evensong made it all the way to the upcoming NS travellogue.
Hindsight is, after all, caused by a lack of foresight.

Death rates exceeded 100% in some towns.

Charles V spent most of his reign aging.

This was beginning of Empire, when Europeans felt the need to reach out and smack someone
User avatar
ewancummins
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 28523
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Post by ewancummins »

Tykus wrote:For all the arguments concerning Drakov and/or Tsien being the lamest DLs, I'm surprised King Doerdon (IIRC) and his laughing domain didn't get a mention. At least Evensong made it all the way to the upcoming NS travellogue.


All hail the King! He was cool, darn it!

After a bit of consideration, I've also decided I do really like Baron evensong. Just needs a little polish, which I undertsand is being done with the NS travelogue- as you mentioned.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
User avatar
ewancummins
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 28523
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Post by ewancummins »

WolfKook wrote:Maybe because of the current political winds in my country (Colombia), I've started seeing Drakov in a different way lately...

I will explain (And I apologize in advance for the political references): As you may know, the current president of my country is a former landowner known as Alvaro Uribe Velez, whose land was one of the targets of the guerrilla wars that have turned Colombia into a very unstable country for the last 50 years or so. The guerrillamen killed his father and constantly robbed his lands (Well, they would put it as if they were "collecting war taxes").

Now, Uribe's detractors (And here I have to say that in spite of what follows, I'm one of his many supporters) connect him with the creation of the paramilitary, an army that started as the landowners paid small forces of mercenaries to protect them from the guerrillas, and eventually ended up being as dangerous as they were (Hence my take on Drakov's backstory).

Anyway, Uribe eventually got political, and his unwillingness to submit to the whims of the guerrilla (As previous presidential candidates had done) eventually earned him the title of President of the Republic. His "strong hand" politics have proved very effective, and have prompted him to a previously unheard 91% popularity index, earning him his 2006 reelection (A figure previously unknown in Colombian Constitution, which was changed in his favor).

Now, the people of Colombia (myself included) see him as the only person able to guide and protect us, and a third reelection is almost imminent, if Uribe decides to run for it (There are no other political figures -except, perhaps, the recently rescued Ingrid Betancourt -who people trust enough to give them leadership of the country).

And if it's true that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, we're in trouble.

(Now, I don't know if my point is clear, though I certainly hope so)
Uribe looks like a good guy to me. Someone has to stop the terrorists and bandits. As you say, it's risky for one man to gain too much power- eventually it can get to the best of them. Let's hope he turns out to be a strong leader in the mold of Cincannatus or George Washington- willing to retire and cede power when the time comes.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
User avatar
WolfKook
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:10 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Bogotá, Colombia
Contact:

Post by WolfKook »

ewancummins wrote:Uribe looks like a good guy to me. Someone has to stop the terrorists and bandits. As you say, it's risky for one man to gain too much power- eventually it can get to the best of them. Let's hope he turns out to be a strong leader in the mold of Cincannatus or George Washington- willing to retire and cede power when the time comes.
Of course, he is (He has done more for my country than any other political leader in the last 60 years). I was just toying with the possibility of a figure like him being corrupted in his ideas for a better country, and the image looked like an interest (and even a little sympathetic) version of Vlad Drakov to me.
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"
William Blake
User avatar
Manofevil
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1727
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:12 pm
Location: Why should I say? No one ever visits!

Post by Manofevil »

Here's hoping he's the Colombian Nelson Mandela. :|
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!

So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Post by HuManBing »

I believe Grissom does not have an "e" at the end. :?:
User avatar
DeepShadow of FoS
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 2923
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:43 pm
Location: Heinfroth's Asylum

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Another candidate for Falkovnia-fodder might be the ancient Spartans, especially insofar as Hitler liked to imagine his Aryan race as a return to them.
The Avariel has borrowed wings,
The Puppeteer must cut the strings
The Orphan Queen must take the throne
The Queen of Orphans calls them home
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Post by HuManBing »

Yes, that's going to be a major part of the Bladeforge story.

If you look at it now, the most recent installment has a strong theme of grievance against a civilian leadership that is repeatedly ungrateful for its military.

In time this will grow into a near-deification of the military, once Drakov takes power.

In this respect at least, the cultural emphases of Sparta and North Korea are not that far apart.
Tykus
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:14 pm

Post by Tykus »

People have commented on this thread the "unbelievability" of Inza. They've forgotten one thing--Inza is, by definition (IIRC), a sociopath (and maybe a psycho- one). She doesn't see that what she's doing is wrong and her social norms make her believe that everybody is like her. "Do unto others because they would do this unto you" mentality. That's what makes her curse so poignant. The DPs have insured that she feels guilt and show her that her world view isn't the only one.

The DPs have already insured a Blessed Knight to wander Sithicus to show Inza that even a entity such as Soth might have been. Imagine the torment if they decide to let her find out that Soth eventually did redeem himself on Krynn after his release from their torment.
Hindsight is, after all, caused by a lack of foresight.

Death rates exceeded 100% in some towns.

Charles V spent most of his reign aging.

This was beginning of Empire, when Europeans felt the need to reach out and smack someone
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

I think the problem people have with Inza isn't so much that a sociopathic villain isn't believable -- certainly, such people exist IRL and are intensely scary -- but that such a villain doesn't really fit as a darklord. Even if the DPs have indeed caused her to feel guilt, in the wake of her rise to darklordship, the fact that she didn't originally possess such feelings flies in the face of the idea that darklords should be NPCs the heroes and players can understand, and feel for, even if they don't agree with them. Even the ones that weren't ever human, like Adam, Sodo or Jacqueline Renier, share character traits -- alienation, insecurity, a craving for company -- that resonate with Ravenloft buffs.

Assuming they're not sociopathic killers themselves, most gamers can't begin to accept the motives for Inza's misdeeds, prior to Soth's fall, which makes her more of a cartoon villain than a Gothic one. It's jarring to have a one-dimensional psycho as a Core darklord, even if the DPs have made her two-dimensional after-the-fact.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
Post Reply