Back to Wizards of the Coast?

[Joël of the FoS]

But Die Vecna Die had the WotC logo

Jo

[Jester of the FoS]

So does the 3rd VR MHC.

I doubt WotC will pick up Ravenloft again. Ever.
Dragonlance and the other niche setting (Dark Sun, Planescape, etc) have not been republished by WotC. They are sticking with the minor stuff such as the golden boy (Forgotten Realms), giving half-assed support to the original (Greyhawk) and full ad money to the new monstrosity (Eberron).
If they were going to pick up an old setting they’d grab one of the unlicensed settings or better sellers (Dragonlance).
They’ll be even less likely with Ravenloft as it is unusual and if dropped by WW, would have already failed as a 3E update.

And really, what would WotC offer that WW could? True some support in Dragon would be nice, novels and adventures would be keen and the production values of their books are simply amazing. Funny how 10-15 years ago White Wolf was leading the industry at production and now small companies are putting out full-colour books almost in par with the colour-athon of WotC products.

WW at least offers like-minded atmosphere so Vamp players looking for a change can go for something new, ie Ravenloft.
Dark Ages should be a non-event as far as Ravenloft is concerned. The second revamped DA line was released about the same time as Ravenloft and had ads at the back of RL books (3-1 odds that the reverse could not be said). Sure the new DA line died a premature death when the WoD ‘ended’ but if it wasn’t a major threat then why would it be now?

[ScS of the Fraternity]

True, true. I would stand to reason that if WW was going to can Ravenloft, than they would have done so long ago.

However, I think it bears mentioning that it is the illogic of White Wolf's managing that scares us in the first place.

White Wolf has made many careless decisions regarding the Ravenloft line, thus it is distinctly possible that WW has made other mistakes - such as taking on RL in the first place and thus generating competition against their own products.

[midnightcat]

Well. I am glad Ravenloft has lasted this long. I feel that if white Wolf had not picked up Ravenloft, that WIzard of theCoast would have let the setting die. All we would have are the Kargatane net-books, and once life had caugjt up with the Kargatane, we might not have even had that. I for one, agree Ravenloft is not about Playing Monsters but the Classical heroes. I Know I would not switch over to the Age of Darkness if Ravenloft stoped. one reason, I never liked the world of Darkness when it was being published. So I doubt I would like the Age of Darkness.

[Jester of the FoS]

The topic was brough up on the WotC boards:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=394203
and it didn't take long for people to bring up the big reason it'd be bad.

They've got three worlds going and they're just letting one die.
Greyhawk, the default world, the original world, Gygax's little playground and the place where almost every D&D mod was set and the place of the default pantheon in the PHB is just being neglected and left to die.
Since '99 they've released 6 novels and one gaming expansion (not counting generic D&D expansions which may or may not fit with the setting).
Most of said novels are actually novelizations of classic adventures (Against the Giants, Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horrors). And the last of these was 2 years ago and no more are planned for this year...
Compare this with the 30+ products released (or re-released) for the Realms in just the last year.
GH
FR

Do we really want them holding on to the licence while not releasing anything? At least if WW drops the line then someone else has the possibility of picking it up.

[tec-goblin]

Well, IMO, Greyhawk is a problematic, boring world. It doesn't do anything well - it is high magic, but not with the history and background of FR, nor with the coolness factor of Eberron. RL is completely different from all three.

The real menace for RL isn't the fact that a new Dark Ages line will hit the streets by itself. The fact is that sales are already down (that's the way they stopped Gazettteers) and very few products can survive with 3 softcovers/year. Combine low profit with high potential cost for other WW products (hear the new Dark Ages line comes to the fore) and you have a real threat.

[midnightcat]

The fact is that sales are already down (that's the way they stopped Gazettteers) and very few products can survive with 3 softcovers/year. Combine low profit with high potential cost for other WW products (hear the new Dark Ages line comes to the fore) and you have a real threat.

I am not assuming that the Gazetteers have been stopped. It is true non are coming out this year, but that is becuase two of the 3 products that are coming, were already planned for 2004. They just didn't have the schedule for a new Gazetteers. I think we will see a return of the Gazetteers in 2006. Atleast White Wolf gave us the Gazetteers of the main core. WOTC said they were going to do that in 2nd , but it never came. Ravenloft returning to WOTC would be a sad thing. Ravenloft would end up like: Dark Sun, Planescape, Grey Hawk, Mystaria, and Spell Jammers. Even with just 3 products a year Ravenloft is better with White Wolf.

[Jester of the FoS]

So there's only three products, that also means their costs for the line are low. Low costs paired with moderate sales means profit, just as much as if there were more books that might not sell as well. With three people will have more money over the year to save between books opposed to having to choose just one or two.

And again, the previous Dark Ages line launched right at the very start of Ravenoft, probably before half the readers found out it had been republished. It would have been easier to cut their losses then.
Dark Ages has nothing to do with whether or not Ravenloft survives. Two entirely different game systems that just happen to have overlapping audiences. Those horror fans play in the past that like the Storyteller system will play DA and those that like d20 will play Ravenloft. Or Midnight. Or a dark version of Eberron.

I don't think everyone who plays Ravenloft (and thus owns the PHB, DMG and MM) is suddenly going to drop and buy a new DA book when it comes out and stop using $100+ worth or material. Plus having to buy any of the new WoD, V:tR, etc books for more background. The new Requirem reboot didn't cause everyone to toss away their d20 books and buy anew.

Ravenloft will survive or fail based on its own sales.

[tec-goblin]

I am not assuming that the Gazetteers have been stopped. It is true non are coming out this year, but that is becuase two of the 3 products that are coming, were already planned for 2004. They just didn't have the schedule for a new Gazetteers. I think we will see a return of the Gazetteers in 2006.

As far as I remember, Dark Duo said that Gazetteers weren't selling that much, so they were suspended. Someone with better memory than me may post you a link to the post.

[tec-goblin]

Ravenloft will survive or fail based on its own sales.

You have reasonable arguments but I still remember of the way Scarred Lands died: a quite successful setting, it was the "second" high magic setting after Forgotten Realms - and provided as an interesting alternative (I rarely consider Greyhawk in such arguments, I am just bored to tell you why - and occupy myself with Greyhawk). Sales went down slowly, and Eberron came out - providing another alternative for high magic worlds (for people who were sick of FR) - and Scarred Lands didn't stand for more than a few months.
I don't think it was a coincidence.
It takes too things for a line to close (company and managerial factors notwithstanding): an important decrease in sales, and a strong alternative in the market.
I hope this won't prove a very hard rule.

[Jester of the FoS]

Scarred Lands also released 36 products between 2001 and 2004. Even if there was a huge audience there is no way they could buy each and every product. Some were bound to be ignored and poor sales resulted. And now they're offering the remaining copies at a huge discount (get the Campaign Setting for a few bucks, pick up the SL Gazes for like $4) meaning they have a glut of back copies filling up the warehouse.
That killed the line.
Only something like WotC which can hide under the banner of official and near-required accesories plus decades of fan support can release that many books. But that also results in the big complaint againts WotC, that they over detail and produce too many books on small areas. Heck, over that same length of time I doubt there were 36 Forgotten Realms books published. It is only when you start looking at things like Complete Adventurer and Races of Stone that the numbers really climb up.

Slowing down production so as to maximize your sales against the small fanbase makes perfect sense given the above.

[tec-goblin]

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... ost5685265

Heroes of Horror. Interesting coincidence...

[Trevorfrost]

Personally the only reason I would like it if Ravenloft went back to WOTC is if they gave it back to people who knew what the heck they were doing with it.. Like the Kargatane or someone similar, not just as writers but at the helm so we don't have huge mess ups like Champions of Darkness.. Oh and if you are going to release 3 books in one year please don't have one be a Masque book which is totally irrelevant to the main setting...

[Jester of the FoS]

Personally the only reason I would like it if Ravenloft went back to WOTC is if they gave it back to people who knew what the heck they were doing with it.. Like the Kargatane or someone similar, not just as writers but at the helm so we don't have huge mess ups like Champions of Darkness..

More like Requiem and Forged for Darkness.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Ah, true. Wherever you go, there you are.

No matter where Ravenloft goes, it will still be influenced by the individual vision of the writers/developers. The success of these products then depends on how well that vision resonates with the fan community. And while its true that some individuals are more in tune with that community, there's no gaurentee that any one person of group will always manage to produce works that resonate.

Still, there is one concern that is more concrete - professionalism. While no one can control the "resonance" of a book, the professial appearance of a book can be controlled.
Though WW has done a generally good job - especially with the artworks - I believe that the professionalism of the line is sorely lacking. There are numerous books that have suffered greatly from careless errors and poor choices.
Books like Masque of the red Death 3.0, and the fiasco with the witchhunter in Secrets of the Dread Realms suggest that WW lacks the quality control that was present in the years of TSR. Certainly errors such as these could have been caught by any professional writer/editor - regardless of their understanding of the Ravenloft setting.