Lamest Dark Lord, and Possible Fixes...

[Gwenfloor]

He crosses over from the intimacy of Gothic horror into the malevolence of high-grade human evil--it's no coincidence, I suspect, that Falkovnia is the second-most popular domain.

I thought that Mordent was the second most popular domain.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Here, at least, Barovia and Mordent tied up for the poll. I don't think Falkovnia has ever been #2.

(BTW, just to be clear, that's Sylaire's post that Gwenfloor is quoting, not mine.)

[Sylaire]

Oh, heck! I meant populous, not popular. As in, second-largest population after Darkon. I think the point I was trying to make is that Drakov and Falkovnia lose their horrific impact without the huddled masses quivering in abused terror and the nearly-as-numerous jackbooted thugs doing the oppressing. It's the kind of thing that has to be moderately large-scale to be truly horrific, otherwise it's merely tragic (and way, way, too common throughout history and the present...we the players have all become more-or-less inured to such concepts, at least on the abstract, it's-happening-on-the-news level). If Falkovnia had the population count of Staunton Bluffs, then the reaction of the players stops being "Oh, my (insert deity's gender)! This is horrific!" to "This Drakov guy is in need of serious squishing. If we each can account for eleven of his soldiers, we'll squash him like a bug." Come to think of it, if the PCs are from off-Ravenloft, they probably have put down someone, or several someones, not unlike Drakov with a population base the size of Staunton Bluffs. At least judging from some of those classic orc or goblin lairs and bandit encounters from back in 1st Edition.

[Manofevil]

Having read this whole thread, first to last, I feel the need to raise some points.
Firstly having seen the general condemnation of Tsien Chiang, I felt the need to reread I'cath and I really have to say, I don't see at all what you guys are talking about. I see a PROBLEM, but not the one posted. What we have here is girl with daddy issues who becomes a feminazi with man issues and later developes a conspiracy theorists obsession. I'm not seeing a lot of cartoon villainy here! The first part of her has almost become cliched in this day and age. I think my mother may suffer from it. In the '70"s, there were neighborhood support groups for it. They even had a theme song! The second part of her character is easily as commonplace. Conspiracy theories abound in our society. From ancient cabals to Alien abductions, everybody seems to think they've seen something that nobody else has seen. Indeed, every racist or antisemitic hate group that exists can be said to be based on conspiracy theories. I'll admit that the thing with the four daughters is a little cartoony, but how are the multitudes killed by Tsien Chaing in her search for the secret of Four different from the multitudes killed by Azalin in the novel 'Lord of the Necropolis". Truthfully, I actually find it refreshing to see a DarkLord with a serious pre-Ravenloft body count. Josef Stalin said that the death of one person is a tragedy but the the deaths of thousands is a statistic. I honestly believe this to be the opinion of some of the RavenLoft original writers. By this I mean that many of the DarkLords got domains after killing maybe 10-20 people. This seems rather unbalanced when compared to someone responsible for the the deaths of thousands. Or even hundreds. Truthfully, I think Tsien Chaing is a fairly good DarkLord.

The PROBLEM with I'Cath is that Tsien Chaing is fundamentally a DarkLord without a domain. I'Cath is not so much a domain as an estate. There is no way to interact with her except as an invading enemy and that always leads to predictable results. She has no way to continue her quest for the secret of Four nor has she any way to dominate all that she ever knew as she once did. I suppose there's no worse curse for such a person., for all that she ever achieved is denied to her now, but it doesn't make for very interesting game play. What needs to happen is that a minor conjunction has to attach to I'Cath four minor provinces from Kara-Tur each with it's own different male dominated society to torment Tsien Chiang each in unique ways. She'd still be stuck in I'Cath but would be able to reach out with her magic. Her attempts at domination would always fail embarrassingly but she WOULD still be able to continue her quest for the secret of Four, even though the Dark Powers would then lead her to a long series of Red Herrings. I'm sure any competant DM could take it form there.

Secondly, Drakov.
I, too, have read 'In Search of Dracula" by Radu Florescu and the impression it gave me was of a man who stalked his land looking for people he considered traitors or enemies and then had them impaled. Regardless of the accuracy of this impression, this was what I was expecting in Vlad Drakov. I was, and still am, very disappointed in the final product. I don't see the current Drakov doing anything more than sitting around his castle impaling people who are brought to him, barking out orders and planning bad strategy. Where's the great war leader leading the charge and conquering armies. The only shred of that we've seen was in WolfKook's backstory. Great job, by the way. I'll never respect Drakov as a DarkLord or character until he gets out there and does something for himself. (I've posted this elsewhere on the boards). If that means he needs the ability to cross borders, Hey, at least he's not sitting around the house. That's the only thing I'd add to everything you guys said.

Hokay, I'm done.

[lostboy]

Just my two cents on Drakov

I guess we have to remember that the historical Dracula was often responding to things in an inicredibly violent way. It seems Drakov is trying and failing to instigate things in an incredibly violent way. Almost all of Draculas actions were provoked, dont get me wrong he went waaaay overboard in the reponse but there was always a reason (at least in his mind). Such as:

Being used as ransom at the court of the sultan as a child
His father being killed and his brother buried alive
His country invaded by non-christian infidels
His sovereignty being usurped by the powerful boyars
Saxon merchants holding commerce in transylvania by the throat
Being betrayed and imprisoned by a once ally
Etc
Etc

Maybe what Drakov needs is something to spur him on, an invading army, internal insurrections or whatever, somethign to make him work for what he has (of course in the nastiest way with the most impalements possible!).

Of course there is also the fact that Drakov isnt solely a Vald Tepes clone, there seems to be bits of various dictators and autocrats in his makeup, but the whole he's a big failure thing isnt particulalry intresting for a campaign and probably explains why he doesnt appear in many published novels or modules.......

[Sylaire]

but the whole he's a big failure thing isnt particulalry intresting for a campaign and probably explains why he doesnt appear in many published novels or modules.......

That's kind of an interesting point. Drakov's particular curse is very effective in tormenting him, but it doesn't make for a very watchable/playable character in story format.

Indeed, as human beings we almost seem geared to sympathize with the failure, the eternal underdog. 80% of the voters on a recent ESPN poll picked the New York Yankees as the most-hated franchise in sports (admittedly a flawed survey because it was an either-or poll. but still...). The comic strip Peanuts flourished for fifty years and continues today in re-runs by featuring the "loveable loser"--itself a regular, recurring archetype in stories and sitcoms.

When we read a story, we want to be able to identify with the protagonist--to see him or her as human. Even if we regret their decisions, we can still see where those decisions are coming from--"there, but for the grace of God, go I." It's what makes I, Strahd such an effective novel, because P.N. Elrod goes to the trouble of making us see through Strahd's eyes and see what drives him.

In a way, it kind of ties in to Manofevil's quote of Stalin's--Strahd's murder of Sergei was a tragedy. Lord Soth's fate is tragic because he was caught between his own ideals, his love, and his self-doubts and paranoia. Mordenheim has a similar issue--his goal to scientifically create life and his love for his wife catch him between each other and allow us to feel his suffering, even though we can see the wrongness of his actions (even though I feel Mordenheim's story lacks a key element of Victor Frankenstein's, but that's for another time). Small-scale crimes build passion and emotion, and we can see, if not ourselves, at least the shadow of ourselves in these people. Who hasn't felt jealous in a relationship? Or had a dream we wanted to accomplish in life? Or had a family squabble turn sour, at least for a while? These darklords reflect wrong choices we could have made, but chose not to, in our own lives.

Drakov, on the other hand, is not someone we can empathize with. Instead of being caught in a personal tragedy, he just kills people by the bucketload. As lostboy points out, unlike the real Vlad Dracula, Drakov doesn't have anything in his personal backstory to elicit sympathy (it was left to Wolfkook to write something in). Nor does Drakov have any heroic qualities at all to leaven the mix--he's a blend of all the worst aspects of the Impaler without the good ones (the fierce patriotism--remember that Falkovnia was created by the Mists for Drakov so he has no real ties to the place) and Hitler. In this situation, Drakov's "curse of failure" isn't a tormenting influence we can empathize with (in the way we can with Strahd's recurring inability to catch up with Tatyana) but a relief, pure and simple--while some part of us may want Strahd to find Tatyana, none of us (I hope!) would want someone like Drakov-as-he-is-written to win in anything.

In essence, Drakov's character as written in the official products seems to me to be suitable only as an antagonist, not a protagonist.

To quote from the Black Box (p.5): "Purely supernatural plots are driven by the antiheroes themselves--dark, evil figures whose passions are no longer human. In fact, they are not human. Yet some part of them always remains so, and therein lies the horror...Because they so closely resemble humans, and represent the dark side of man, they are terrifying in a way that Godzilla could never be."

Possibly I am in the minority on this one, but I find that I cannot see myself in the role of a Hitler, a Stalin, a Pol Pot, or any other such psychopathic dictator. These people seem, essentially, inhuman to me--their driving passions utterly alien, their capacity for large-scale devastation inconceivable. (The video game Bloodrayne makes this point for me--in the first third of the game, the enemies are humans hopelessly infected with a zombifying virus spawned by spider-like monsters, while in the latter parts the enemies are--you guessed it--Nazis. The underlying message, as you slice, dice, dismember, suck the blood from, and watch assorted body parts go flying, is that hey, these aren't human beings, they're Nazis. They're closer in nature to the zombies from the beginning of the game than they are to "real people" and therefore it's perfectly all right to employ whatever violence you like against them without a qualm of conscience--obviously a deeply flawed concept from a humanitarian or socialogical/anthropological standpoint, but it makes the point effectively.) And thusly, Drakov remains the monster over the border, not even as sympathetic as the banshee of Keening but really more akin to the illithids of Bluetspur.

(As yet another point, consider this--there's another darklord with the same ambitions and curse as Drakov: "I want to be Big Bad Conquering Ruler, but the Dark Powers won't let me!" It's Harkon Lukas, and as a wolfwere, Lukas isn't a human (or demihuman) being but a monster...and his depiction is vastly more effective than Drakov's.

[HuManBing]

To Manofevil, concerning Tsien Chiang:

You see a darklord who's compelling because of the female-distrust-of-men dimension of her existence.

That's perfectly fine.

Personally, I see a darklord and a domain that's unacceptably oversimplified because it's the only China-flavored domain in the Demiplane... and because it's the sole representative of China-flavored domains in the Demiplane, it has a heavy burden to bear when it comes to not being a wild stereotype.

This, it utterly fails to do.

If they had put more Asian styled domains in the game then I'Cath (which is not even close to being a valid Chinese word, I might add) might not have such a heavy standard to meet. But as it is, the only canonical Chinese characters are this handful of women, sitting in a grove somewhere, waiting for foreign men to come by.

I suppose it could be more insensitive if they put a speech bubble saying "Me so horny" coming out of their mouths. But as it stands it is already pretty bad if you ask me.

This might have been remedied if Jade Dragon had ever come out, as that sounded like it might have a modicum of actual research and cultural depth behind it. A product has been released called "Qin: the Warring States" (not a d20 product) which does an excellent job of recreating the dramatic history strife of the Qin dynasty in China. Something like that has good opportunities for horror as well, and if Jade Dragon had done something like that, then I'Cath wouldn't matter. Against that backdrop of a broader, more inclusive setting of a Chinese culture, I'Cath could work well as a small pocket domain that merely represents a small facet of Chinese culture in Ravenloft.

It's all relative, really.

But, rather typically, they cancelled Jade Dragon. I suppose it wouldn't have been profitable to market to an Asian demographic. I also suppose that would have made it all right.

[Mangrum]

I'll just point out again that I'Cath is strongly, and rather transparently, based on the A Chinese Ghost Story series of movies.

[HuManBing]

I'll just point out again that I'Cath is strongly, and rather transparently, based on the A Chinese Ghost Story series of movies.

Yes, you've made that point before, and it was well taken, as it is here.

My point is rather similar to the US citizens who go to Japan and find that when many Japanese think of the word "American" it makes them think of men wearing calfskin leggings and shooting revolver pistols in the Wild Wild West. The US citizens' responses seem (justifiably) to be "Eh?"

The Japanese stereotype of American culture is not technically inaccurate, but it's very incomplete.

This narrow focus is fine if there's a backdrop of other, culturally broader, reference points. As it is, Ravenloft lacks this. It might have received it in Masque of the Jade Dragon, but we'll never know. Absent that, I'Cath is a very two-dimensional domain, regardless of whether it draws on a bona fide Chinese tale or not.


...

Actually, now that I think of it, aren't most stereotypes usually based on something that is or was factual at some point? We blast stereotypes today not so much for their inaccuracy as for their incompleteness.

This is one of the reasons why even supposedly positive stereotypes should be avoided... because they leave often-unrealistic expectations. ("All Asians are good at math" "Asian men all know a devastating martial art form" "You can always trust an Asian to behave honorably"... what if I personally am none of the above? The stereotype then holds me to be inferior to expectations.)

At risk of waxing too esoteric on this subject, I end here.

[cure]

It is a deep seated suspicion of mine that to do evil on a grand scale requires the conviction that one is doing good. That may be bringing peace to the world by conquering it to the last point of disturbance. That may be securing the place of your country, culture, ethnicity, religion and/or ideology by defeating and/or liquidating its rivals and proving thereby their inferiority. That may be terrorising and torturing those terrorists and torturers who oppose your ambitions and/or machinations. Recall Marx's observation that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Equally Ricoeur has remarked that violence always tries to get reason on its side. The perpetrators of grand evils are never wanting for reasons. It is a misreading of history to view its worst men as being sociopaths. The orchestration of grand evils is by its essence a social activity, which is to say one requiring cooperation, and hence belief. What is monstrous about the Nazis is not that they are spiders, but rather that they are human. And all too human we should add.

So return to Vlad. There is no evidence that he demands his underlings to debase themselves before him like Azalin does. So let us say that he cherishes Falkovnians who distinguish themselves in their service to their country, culture, race and system through valorous feats of arms. Such men and women receive high honours at the hands of Vlad himself. They are noble warriors, fit of mind and fit of body, not the sneak thief rats of Richemulot, not the smiling, venemous waifs of Borca, not the effeminate flops of Dementlieu, not the death dealing tools of Lamordia and Darkon.

Vlad values hard work, honesty, strength, health, cooperation. Indeed he expects them of all Falkovnians. And he sees their essential enemies encircling Falkovnia. So what does he do? Break the choke hold. And what do his failures testify to? The desperate plight of virtue in a world filled with vice. The tragedy, as Vlad sees it, is that the rivers of blood so necessarily spilled in the defense of human virtue are no assurance of victory.

By all means Vlad revels in the slaughter of his wars for they are nothing less than the slaughter of the enemies of humanity. The tragedy is that he fails to realise that he is himself the enemy of the humanity that he boldly champions (or would boldly champion if he were not locked away in his land). And his curse is not really to fail as a conquerer. It is rather to fail in his quest to secure the good of his people . . . as he so mistakenly sees it.

The key to Vlad is to not take him for a debauched sadist . . . despite the stakings. Capital punishment is there to strengthen the moral fiber of his people and to remind even himself, in his moments of relaxation which is to say weakness, how much remains to be done.

[HuManBing]

I add that I am actually good at math and martial arts.

But you should never trust me to act honorably

[Manofevil]

To Manofevil, concerning Tsien Chiang:

You see a darklord who's compelling because of the female-distrust-of-men dimension of her existence.

That's perfectly fine.

Personally, I see a darklord and a domain that's unacceptably oversimplified because it's the only China-flavored domain in the Demiplane... and because it's the sole representative of China-flavored domains in the Demiplane, it has a heavy burden to bear when it comes to not being a wild stereotype.

This, it utterly fails to do.

If they had put more Asian styled domains in the game then I'Cath (which is not even close to being a valid Chinese word, I might add) might not have such a heavy standard to meet. But as it is, the only canonical Chinese characters are this handful of women, sitting in a grove somewhere, waiting for foreign men to come by.
.

Well then you've gotten my point, exactly. Tsien Chiang is not a lame DarkLord but a DarkLord with a lame domain. Condemnation of I'cath belongs in another thread entitled 'lamest DOMAINS and possible fixes'

I suppose it could be more insensitive if they put a speech bubble saying "Me so horny" coming out of their mouths. But as it stands it is already pretty bad if you ask me.
.

EWWWWWW! That's just..... EEEEEWWWWWWWWW!!!!

This might have been remedied if Jade Dragon had ever come out, as that sounded like it might have a modicum of actual research and cultural depth behind it. A product has been released called "Qin: the Warring States" (not a d20 product) which does an excellent job of recreating the dramatic history strife of the Qin dynasty in China. Something like that has good opportunities for horror as well, and if Jade Dragon had done something like that, then I'Cath wouldn't matter. Against that backdrop of a broader, more inclusive setting of a Chinese culture, I'Cath could work well as a small pocket domain that merely represents a small facet of Chinese culture in Ravenloft.

It's all relative, really.

But, rather typically, they cancelled Jade Dragon. I suppose it wouldn't have been profitable to market to an Asian demographic. I also suppose that would have made it all right.

All good points and we all know what a waste it was that RavenLoft was shut down before it ever rea;lly had a chance to develope. I never really thought of these characters from a racial perspective before and I shouldn't be surprised that this one offended you deeply. ( Scream, Hate, and Spite? Sounds like a Death Metal group. Or a law firm. Anyway...) TSR's passive racism aside, I stand up for Tsien Chiang because she's really the only other canon Darklord in Ravenloft other than maybe Drakov who came through the mists with a serious body count to her name. If I may go back to the book "In Search of Dracula", for a second, I remember well reading that the historical impaler was supposed to have killed up to 100,000 people in his lifetime. The point I make is this: How do the body counts of RavenLoft's DarkLords stack up against a figure like that. Clearly, Tsien Chiang and Drakov came through the mists with high figures and Azalin and Hazlik have clearly gone down this road during their time in the 'loft... It suddenly occurs to me that many of the DarkLords have LIVING victims rather than dead ones, so let's change the criteria from body count to victim count. ... How many people would someone like Harkon Lucas or Adam or even Strahd victimize in the course of a year? I'd be surprised if the figures were higher than 50 apiece. In a place like RavenLoft, one would expect these types to be the exception rather than the rule. I'm not saying that all the DarkLords should have butchered thousands or made thousands suffer before the mists bothered to snap them up, but rather, that I'd expect there to be a few more of this type around than there are. Then again, perhaps what we are seeing here is the limitaions of the Dark Powers. If they include too many mass killers in the equation, it may cut an already sparse population down to the point where the DarkLords no longer have anyone to victimize. That would be a problem

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Not so much a limitation on the DPs' powers as on their area of interest, perhaps. As has often been noted, there are huge numbers of BBEGs in other D&D game settings whom the Dark Powers have never bothered to "collect", many of them with tremendous body-counts to their name ... the likely reason being that they're not Gothic villains, but simply cause harm in an impersonal, businesslike fashion.

Whatever standards the DPs use to select potential darklords, they seem to prefer quality (who you choose to hurt, relatives and close friends especially) over quantity (how many you've harmed). A tyrant who killed tens of thousands more than Azalin, yet never executed his own son, wouldn't catch their interest at all IMHO.

[The Giamarga]

As i said in another thread in Ravenloft evilness is measure on a gothic scale. And nowhere does it say that the DPs have to choose every example of a certain kind of person that does rate high on their scale of gothic evilness. As far as we know rating high is necessary but probably not sufficient.

The DPs motives remain a mystery...

[artemis wands]

I'm not sure who would get my vote for lamest, but there are several points where I thought TSR/WotC made inexplicable or simply wrong choices.

Mordenheim, for instance, should be the darklord of Lamordia. At least a co-darklord (though it would be more interesting if Adam was free to roam the Core).

Loht should have been made a darklord -- or at least failed a Powers check or two -- for what he did to Tristessa's baby.

In the Black Box days, I always thought Gundar was fairly redundant.

I'm not a big fan of Urik von Kharkov, either. He's just a little too contrived for my tastes.

A lot of the Islands and Pockets featured silly or useless darklords, too. I think the lord of Nosos has been mentioned, along with Baron Evensong.

But nothing requires us to use these domains or characters as written (or at all) in our own campaigns, anyway.