Is Ravenloft Dead?

[tec-goblin]

Actually, the "Legacies of Blood" feat is different from the "Star Wars" one. (Same name, different game function. I slipped and used a feat name that already existed.)

I don't think anyone is obligated to know Star Wars feats when writing Ravenoft books

[tec-goblin]

I would defend John here on his list of things with HoL. After all, what he presented that list for was to correct the errors BEFORE they went to the printers. He didn't submit this after, he tried to prevent mistakes. What's wrong with that?

Well, I agree with you - the sooner you notice and try to correct an error - even someone else's error, the better. He did right for trying to correct some of the above.
But it appeared clearly that there WAS an intention in that book of "allowing" some things that otherwise shouldn't be allowed. Some of them where allowed too easily (detective detect evil), some are just "plot devices" - I mean, okay, the wanderer can TRY to leave a domain with closed borders. But after all, he's a level 15+ character, with the favor of Ezra. At least a chance is ok. And, if he DOES NOT succeed, then usually he's in deep trouble...
I don't have problem with powers like that. Even RL core book said that there might be some artifacts and ways to leave Ravenloft, for example.
Well, apparently John had a problem and was furious. Some of the fans agree, some not. I am more upset about the average artwork and unplayable PrCs of CoD than the one or two abilities which can be used greatly as plot devices (yes I did have a player with the ability to cross closed borders - he wasn't as mad as to use it without careful thought).

[Ultramyth]

Actually, I do admit that I find the amount of errors and poor editing very disturbing in Ravenloft products.

Indeed, I'm very particular about my purchases, and due to the startling amount of errors, I didn't pick up masque because of of the rediculous amounts of spelling errors and inconsistancies. A shame. I was really looking forward to it.

The problem I see though, is that if we stop buying game material, doesn't that instead send a message to the publishers that we're not interested?

Aside from writers and artists occasionally visiting these pages, what about the people truely responsible for the line? Where are they? Why aren't they listening?

Ravenloft by far is one of the best role-playing concepts ever. What a shame that so many products continue to be plagued by errors...

I don't believe in buying books that I don't need. And I won't ever buy COD or HOL, they're just not useful to my ravenloft campaign.

What can really be done to get the publisher's attention? Can we not come up with a concept, and tell them: Make this, this is what we want?

Polls anyone? Why not gather information in the Ravenloft community?

[Don Fernando]

A bit out of context perhaps but I would like to state my opinion about the quality of the products in the Ravenloft Line.

I agree with many of you, that some, or maybe a lot (this depends entirely on your point of view) of 2nd. Edition products are not as good as they must have been (The Requiem Box for example, is a perfect example). But all in all, the writing, history and rules were of high quality. And you could tell that there were people behind those products who cared about the Line (just as is now on the 3rd Ed products). Now, I hope you will agree with me on this, that there is more to quality than the text and ideas inside a book. And this is where the 2nd Ed books shine. The layout, the art and also the extras those products gave you were excelent. And I really miss that.

On the other hand, I would say that 3rd. Ed Products are a nice step forward for Ravenloft concerning the ideas, the text, and storytelling. But frankly, the quality of the books themselves is very poor. For starters, the maps in the Gazetteers are simply an insult. I was expecting new maps, detailed and all, from these products, and all I get is a magnifying glass view? Second: the art where we have at least three different artists per book and in some cases, more. This doesn't help the atmosphere of the book at all, and the layout of the books doesn't even help to highlight and appreciate the artist's work. And there is more….

So I must say that aside the fact that the information given in most of the books in 3rd Ed is really useful, and fresh (I am very glad that so many Kargatane members got a chance to work in these books, because they really made a great job), I am very disappointed with the work done by Arthaus. It is true that many of us hardcore players are prone to buy everything about Ravenloft, even if we are not using it. But beside this, I must say that, I am also looking to get the most out of my money, and if I don't get it then, as many fans will certainly do, I will stop buying more products, or buy the ones I need, since we already have the 2nd. Ed. material to work with.

[Charney]

I must say my opinion about the quality of books. CoD and HoL did serve one purpose, it made me a more careful customer. If I knew someone who wanted them, I would gladly sell them, especially CoD.

Now I wait to read all the reviews of a product before I buy it even if it has the Ravenloft Logo on it. The best example is Masque which I did not buy after reading all the reviews and comments on the editing and typos. I've got the Living Death rules so if it's only a reprint of those rules I don't like, I'll get d20 Past instead.

LoB and Dark Tales, I don't own them either but that's because I'm not close to gaming in RL so I wouldn't need them anyhow.

And about JWM's comments, I do get his point (he can correct me if I'm wrong) and why he's not so happy. He gave himself 200% to the line but, whether it's justified or not (I just don't want another debate over this), he felt that the higher ups don't really care and that it's not worth it.

And from what I can tell, there was a awful lot of lack of communication between authors and developpers. Who's fault it is doesn't matter cause the harm's done and the Kargatane have left.

Now I know there's great authors still there. Since I do not know who wrote what in all books (like the VRGttSFey), I can only say I love what Rucht, Steve and Ryan have written so far. But that's just me

[tec-goblin]

For starters, the maps in the Gazetteers are simply an insult.

Oh yes, I agree with this wording...

Second: the art where we have at least three different artists per book and in some cases, more. This doesn't help the atmosphere of the book at all, and the layout of the books doesn't even help to highlight and appreciate the artist's work. And there is more….

Almost anyone does it. I think it's something almost unavoidable for the genre. I think we could have about 2 for a book but not less - it's the kind of timing and organisation needed for such a thing.

[tec-goblin]

The best example is Masque which I did not buy after reading all the reviews and comments on the editing and typos. I've got the Living Death rules so if it's only a reprint of those rules I don't like, I'll get d20 Past instead.

I agree with your choice. In fact, I liked HoL but I didn't like Masque at all. At least, the first one has many rules that work. The second doesn't have any.
And d20 Past has more rules that work (and great layout and editing) than CoD, HoL and MotRD combined. For 20$.

. Since I do not know who wrote what in all books (like the VRGttSFey), I can only say I love what Rucht, Steve and Ryan have written so far. But that's just me

Me too. So that's just the two of us

[Steve Miller]

LoB and Dark Tales, I don't own them either but that's because I'm not close to gaming in RL so I wouldn't need them anyhow.

/begin sales mode

"But 'Dark Tales' is valuable for ANY D&D campaign with touches of the horrific, and there's plenty of stuff in LoB that is applicable outside Ravenloft. Plus, Ravenloft when done right is, by its very nature somewhat modular. You can pick up pieces and place them in any D&D world. Both the books you mentioned are great for that."

/end sales mode

[Le Noir Faineant]

The best example is Masque which I did not buy after reading all the reviews and comments on the editing and typos. I've got the Living Death rules so if it's only a reprint of those rules I don't like, I'll get d20 Past instead.

I agree with your choice. In fact, I liked HoL but I didn't like Masque at all. At least, the first one has many rules that work. The second doesn't have any.
And d20 Past has more rules that work (and great layout and editing) than CoD, HoL and MotRD combined. For 20$.

Already out for sale?

LoB and Dark Tales, I don't own them either but that's because I'm not close to gaming in RL so I wouldn't need them anyhow.

/begin sales mode

"But 'Dark Tales' is valuable for ANY D&D campaign with touches of the horrific, and there's plenty of stuff in LoB that is applicable outside Ravenloft. Plus, Ravenloft when done right is, by its very nature somewhat modular. You can pick up pieces and place them in any D&D world. Both the books you mentioned are great for that."

/end sales mode

REALLY?

[DarkDuo]

The books creators squbble on and on about little nitpicks but in reality did that stop the book from getting purchised by the fans?

Well...

Raise your hand out there if you didn't buy COD or HOL just because it had a bad review? Or stoped using DOD just because the stats were wrong. Or tossed out VRGTTWD because it was written in many voices?

I see very few of you out there.

And to be honest, in the case of those first two -- that's just plain embarrassing. While I was working on the line, I had to actively block readers like you out of my mind. I tried to write for readers who actually gave a damn.

Make no mistake: Posts like this are the product of someone who doesn't care about quality. All you want are books with the Ravenloft logo shoveled your way, quality be damned. You sound like an addict, frankly, begging for a steady fix.

I mean, if you honestly don't care that the game accessories you're buying are filled with broken and unplayable rules, then you are the worst kind of fan and any game designer who pays heed to you is ultimately doing themselves in.

You are an enabler of bad books.

You are an open wallet, and you are explictly asking to be treated like one.

If you're happy to accept anything you get handed so long as it has the right label on it, then by golly, that is exactly what you get.

I had intended not to post any more on these boards because I didn't need the stress of rude and unprofessionally insulting comments by certain posters, but I had to say something after reading this post!

It's one thing to rip to shred the developers and editors and even your fellow authors, but to say something like you said above to one of the fans is truly overstepping your position.

You are practically deified by the Ravenloft community and have been for years. Many of your fans think you are "awesome" (overheard at GenCon a couple of years ago). Many of the people who post on this board take your words as gospel. What you say, they believe. Who you like, they revere and who you dislike, they revile. You have so much adulation from the fans that to see you wield your reputation and your power as a scourge to flay a FAN for not living up to your standards of Ravenloft fandom is beyond the Pale.

You can continue tearing me to shreds if you want. It's only words and I've been writing professionally for 21 years and developing for 5; I'm used to getting slammed by people who don't like me (and receiving kudos from those who do).

I would also like to warn you to be careful when posting communications with Arthaus or its employees or freelancers on this board. Sometimes those communications are public domain and sometimes they are highly confidential and not for public airing.

It's not that anybody's trying to hide anything, it's just that you should have gotten permission from the people you originally sent the errata out to (whether Arthaus or us) before you posted it. Some things are just meant to remain confidential...

Even if you can't restrain your impulse to prove yourself right regardless of who you have to shred to do so, please, please don't take it out on your fanbase! After all, they're mostly on your side!

Jackie

[Dr Bloodworth]

Why this thread hasn't been closed by the moderators is beyond me. This is devolving into into an ad nauseam flame-fest and little or nothing useful is coming out of it.

[Steve Miller]

Sometimes those communications are public domain and sometimes they are highly confidential and not for public airing.

Mangrum proved long ago that he really doesn't give a rip about such formalities. (Not that I know the status of his posts here... just what he did on my board some time back.)

But maybe this was the first time you got to witness it?

[Steve Miller]

AKA Daisy wrote:

REALLY?

Oh yes! Anything that I've contributed to is always useful in high-quality campaigns. In fact, if you can't use it in your campaign, it's obviously not a decent one!

[DarkDuo]

Why this thread hasn't been closed by the moderators is beyond me. This is devolving into into an ad nauseam flame-fest and little or nothing useful is coming out of it.

Maybe it hasn't been closed because it's one of the most active threads on this board?

Jackie

[Joël of the FoS]

Why this thread hasn't been closed by the moderators is beyond me. This is devolving into into an ad nauseam flame-fest and little or nothing useful is coming out of it.

Sure, it's controversial, but many people read it to get answer to their questions. Something stinks in this - whatever it is. You have no idea how many PMs I got since it started.

We're just making damage control, making sure people stay within lines.

Maybe it hasn't been closed because it's one of the most active threads on this board?

Considering the tone of the thread, I'm not sure if I should see irony in it Just a note that it's one of 23 active theads within the last week.

Joël