Talon Bracers vs a Dragonwrought Kobold (aka the Basilisk)

[HuManBing]

HuManBing, A bee swarm is interesting. Are there official stats for one anywhere?

I checked up my Monster Manual. It seems the closest they have is just a normal swarm of Fine-sized flying creatures. I'd argue that the only thing you need to change from that would be the damage - let them do more damage than usual (to reflect the extreme pain and distraction of bee stings).

Bees also take no damage from normal weapons available to humans, unless they're using fire or other atypical methods.

Also, impromptu weapons:

Itching powder - spend enough time in the wild with a herbalist or a ranger, and a kobold clan should have enough powdered leaves to pack into a breakable grenade shell. Thrown against a human, it doesn't even need to hit them - just to land nearby.

Bee hives - as introduced above. Doesn't have to be a hive, per se. They could even trap some angry bees in an earthenware pot and throw that at the enemies. This would create a small, localized swarm that would only trail one single enemy around.

Stink bombs - kobolds could put really unbelievably gross half-rotten organic material into breakables and throw them at the enemies. If the kobolds have a troglodyte or two to help them, they will eventually get used to the stench themselves, but humans likely won't.

Feather balloon - A bladder of some sort can be stuffed with feathers and then have fresh intestines tied off at both ends and stuffed underneath. Within a few hours, this becomes a bloated sac, ready to go off if somebody stumbles onto the bladder and steps on it, bursting the bloating intestines and creating an unpleasant stink, while also jetting a load of feathers everywhere. This will make them easy to see for ambushing kobolds, while making it difficult for the victim to get out of a sudden cloud of feathers floating around.

[VAN]

In regards to the Falkovnian armored Talons, I recall one game where we held off a "siege" with common items as makeshift ammo. We had buckets of boiling water, hot oil, hot sand (OW!), boiling lye, pitch, bleach, and other nasty things that we tossed at the attackers. All of those ran through chinks in the armor and couldn't be gotten out out of the armor once it was in - so the attackers had to pick between excruciating, crippling pain or taking their armor off. For extra nastiness we added hot honey to some of it to make it stick. We also found out that boiling lye plus even more heat is about the same as napalm (or at least our GM thought it did).

That's pretty nasty! and very clever!

[cure]

In regards to the Falkovnian armored Talons, I recall one game where we held off a "siege" with common items as makeshift ammo. We had buckets of boiling water, hot oil, hot sand (OW!), boiling lye, pitch, bleach, and other nasty things that we tossed at the attackers. All of those ran through chinks in the armor and couldn't be gotten out out of the armor once it was in - so the attackers had to pick between excruciating, crippling pain or taking their armor off. For extra nastiness we added hot honey to some of it to make it stick. We also found out that boiling lye plus even more heat is about the same as napalm (or at least our GM thought it did).

The kobolds could have portable traps with that stuff, or depending on their level of technology they could use them as catapult and ballista projectiles.

Very, very nice. Using their armour against them is a key strategy. I am increasingly thinking that on the fly a druid would be perfect for such.

I too have wondered about portable traps. Even a portable magic trap ensorcelled into a tarp. But I have reached no happy conclusions yet. It is silly, but one almost needs a portable razor wire trap, because otherwise one, according to the rules, takes weeks to set up.

I am also looking for some portable or readily improvisable road block weighing not more than 300lb that an invisiblity spell can be cast on. It must be one item, although I suppose a wagon, for example would work. The goal is for the lead horse and rider to plow into it and hopefully end up prone as a consequence.

Heavy weaponry of the ballista sort might be accurate enough. I am less sure of catapults, to say nothing of the effort involved in dragging them, even dissembled, about. Although slinging the dead and rotting horse corpses of the previous patrol at the current one has a nicely ironic feel to it.

[cure]

Depriving sight to Talons, and to their mounts, is manifestly good.

But a key problem is the high constitution and consequently fortitude saves of both the Talons and their mounts. That puts a huge damper on stinks magical and banal and necromancy besides and swarms too to some extent.

And talons also have very good will saves thanks to their accused bracers.

Which, magically at least, and more mundanely too argues in the direction of forcing them to make reflex saves and, better still, balance checks, or even, at the extreme, swim checks. Traps would be a natural, but even simple razor wire is prohibitive in terms of time. Forcing Talons to make their last stand on heaps of rumble would be nice, but not so easily arranged. Perhaps affecting road washouts by busting beaver dams . . . .

[Isabella]

What's the average reflex save on a horse?

Tanglefoot bags, oil slicks, grease spells, ice, loose gravel, thick brambles, and even heavy tripwire could all have the same effect of tripping up the lead horse, forcing everyone behind/next to it to try not to fall over it. It's not likely to affect the Talons - they probably have good enough ride checks to avoid the sudden obstacle, or at least a good enough ride check not to have their horse fall on them - but if the mount breaks a leg no one is going to be happy.
Edit: +4 Ride checks? Nevermind, these guys are going to be piling up like a car wreck in a "Blues Brothers" movie.

Also, if the kobolds are in hilly areas, they can set off gravel avalanches or send hundreds of logs thundering down the slopes - there's a trip reflex save that's nothing to scoff at (assuming it doesn't crush the Talons first)!

[ChrisNichols]

Heh heh heh...

Chris Nichols
(Knows the secrets of the Basilisk and the Lizard... but ain't telling)

[cure]

Talon (with magical bracers): Fort +7, Reflex +3, Will +5, SR 12, and, a surprisingly low, +4 for Ride checks, plus -5 Balance, -11 Jump, -11 Move Silently (pipes of pain anyone?), -15 Jump (trenches?), and -3 swim (this last is not as bad as I thought).

Heavy warhorse: Fort +7, Reflex +5, Will +2.

[cure]

Heh heh heh...

Chris Nichols
(Knows the secrets of the Basilisk and the Lizard... but ain't telling)

I am not sure we want to known what wyverns and kobolds do together in the privacy of their own caves . . .

[Archedius]

My previous post- I forgot to mention I adjudicate happenings in my campaign closer to reality than DnD rules in some cases. I.E. Arrows usually don't work well on plate, bludgeoning and some pierce weaps work better vs plate. THing is my example isn't effective if you only apply DnD rules to it, but it was actually used in real life against those in field plate. I know that there's magic and all that but I usually err on the side of realism, works for my group.
Lol to be honest I forgot that not everyone house-rules their games to death like I do

[Isabella]

Talon (with magical bracers): Fort +7, Reflex +3, Will +5, SR 12, and, a surprisingly low, +4 for Ride checks, plus -5 Balance, -11 Jump, -11 Move Silently (pipes of pain anyone?), -15 Jump (trenches?), and -3 swim (this last is not as bad as I thought).

Heavy warhorse: Fort +7, Reflex +5, Will +2.

With that low a ride and balance check, a kobold with a tub of lard could probably take out the Talons. And the great thing about real grease is that you can set it on fire after someone slips in it.

[cure]

Well a character, say a rogue, with 5 balance is not flat-footed when balancing, whereas anyone with less than 5 is flat-footed. Hence sneak attacks galore for said rogue with no possibility of provoking an attack of opportunity. But is one balancing if one is just standing on ice or grease? If one moves, one clearly is. See the description of Grease and Ice Storm. But just standing there? If you take damage (see the description of Balance) you are forced to make a balance check. But if you are doing damage it is not clear, at least to me.

There must be some viable attack routine to fully exploit this . . . .

How about sneak attack missile damage from outside the area of the grease or lard, provoking balance checks, and polearms from outside the area to 'bull rush' the individual back to the centre if he begins to make a successful escape. Does that fit the rules? Of course tossing caltrops on top of the grease or lard is loads of fun.

I am also thinking that a bat familiar could almost without fear of consequence deliver touch attacks against a Talon stuck in an Sleet Storm . Add the feat Fell Drain from Librus Mortus and one has a Talon killer.

[Archedius]

- access to a shatter spell might be very useful as well to disarm a talon or even negate their armor (a favorite spell of mine)
- don't remember if anyone mentioned it but web is a really nice spell as it requires a reflex save; good way to buy time and keep distance

both of these are level 2 spells and I suspect the kobolds at least have a few sorcs in their ranks

[Isabella]

But is one balancing if one is just standing on ice or grease? If one moves, one clearly is.

From the 3.5 SRD:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area.

Since you have to make a save just for being in the area, my interpretation is that just standing on grease counts as slippery.

[cure]

- access to a shatter spell might be very useful as well to disarm a talon or even negate their armor (a favorite spell of mine)
- don't remember if anyone mentioned it but web is a really nice spell as it requires a reflex save; good way to buy time and keep distance

both of these are level 2 spells and I suspect the kobolds at least have a few sorcs in their ranks

I meant to run the numbers on Shatter. You are attacking an attended item however. And I doubt Talons really only carry a bastard sword. But armour is certainly fair game. Sundering not the bastard sword itself but, before it is drawn, the scabbard/belt loop is actually a promising technique for kobolds with the right sort of reach weapon. But again, I think Talons should also carry a bludgeoning weapon of some sort, especially given their experience fighting against the undead of Darkon.

I have run the numbers on Web. You combine Web and Slow Fire and thus a flaming Talon caught in the Web remains caught for 2 rather than 1 round and suffers fire damage from the alchemical fire and from the burning webbing over twice as many rounds as normal and with neither saves nor spell resistance. You can do 1d6x4 damage from alchemical fire spread over four rounds and 2d4x2 damage over two rounds from the burning webbing. So replace the webbing after two rounds and do a total of 24 hp per enemy over four rounds while keeping the enemy pinned. Repeat everything and the horses are dead and the Talons are very near death.

The problem is that it is not realistic to catch more than a couple of Talons at once in the surprise round. Talons should be ordered to keep their horses seperated from nose to tail by 15 ft. And better still would be 40 ft which would elminate the possibility of more than one Talon getting caught in most spells with the line spell Lightning being a notable exception and the huge radius Entanglment spell being a second. Now of course one can do things to bunch them up, a skunk sitting in the middle of the road, but that should make them extremely wary and much harder to surprise (although I am not sure how this should be expressed in terms of game mechanics (do all the Talons with line of sight to the location of a hidden ambusher automatically get a spot check against each ambusher and stopping for the skunk would invite a second series of checks?)).

Incidently, this suggests that a minimum safe patrol properly spaced consists of at least 3 and probably 4 or 5 members, although all don't have to be Talons or Raptor Knights for that matter.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I believe the Talons are meant to be the elite forces. I don't recall if numbers are given anywhere, but IMC, I have rarely had more than one in the same place. Usually they lead groups of lower level officers and soldiers. I'd imagine a force of 5 or more Talons would be assembled only for the most important of missions. But YMMV.