Darklords, what are they good for?

[Manofevil]

I can't believe I just did this...

Now you know how I felt when I submitted my answers to the trivia contest.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Darklords are plot devices as well as NPCs. While they don't need to be at the center of every adventure, or even most adventures, they're a tool that DMs can use to initiate plots (e.g. what's Azalin up to this time? okay, here's the teensy peripheral part of his scheme which the PCs run up against....), justify circumstances (e.g. why is all of Sithicus falling to pieces? no, my PCs won't be facing Soth, they're not powerful enough yet ... but they can certainly try to save this particular elven village!), and even to correct egregious gaffs on the DM's part (e.g. oops, I let my PCs set fire to the entire Village of Barovia! wait, here comes Count Strahd's magical fog ... it's sweeping over the village, better run for it PCs ... gosh, look at that, the people are okay and the fire's gone out! guess you guys got lucky that time, but I wouldn't try that again, not if the local wizard-lord's got that kind of spell-power....). They can be the mastermind behind the curtain, manipulating the PCs' direct opponents toward some greater end the players don't suspect, or the diablos ex machina that steps in to undermine a lesser villain's scheming at the last minute, if the PCs themselves fail ... but at a price far more terrible than that lesser villain's total victory would have cost.

Darklords also embody the theme or "flavor" of their domain, so provide essential inspiration for how a DM should portray a particular country's landscape, social climate, and/or cultural elements. For instance, both Necropolis and Keening are lifeless domains and home to undead that re-enact the activities of their past lives, yet the former is actively malignant first and tragic second, while the latter is the other way around ... just like their darklords. Descriptions of encounters in these two domains should feel very different, even if they're identical in terms of game-stats, and skimming their respective darklords' descriptive text should help a DM find the right words to express those differences (e.g. "As it charges, the zombie's eyes flare with its hatred and envy for the loathed living..." vs. "The undeath-stricken soldier's open hand seems to reach towards you in a voiceless plea for release, even as its sword arm lifts its blade to strike...").

[Bluebomber4evr]

You can play in Ravenloft for quite a while and never run into a Darklord, but the way I see it, any long-running campaign should have at least one encounter with a darklord at one point. They're such a big part of the setting and such great villains that to not use one seems to be missing the point of their existence.

[Fido]

I don't think you need to be afraid to use darklords. Their characters with great background stories and with personalities. It would be just stupid to let them lie aside and not let your players in on all that jazz.

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

I don't think you need to be afraid to use darklords. Their characters with great background stories and with personalities. It would be just stupid to let them lie aside and not let your players in on all that jazz.

Absolutely. I guess I am just saying - there are other stories out there worth telling that only involve the darklords as backdrops, low-key in the day to day lives and advenmtures of your party. But yeah - little hints and tidbits about darklord's rumoured stories - particularly when they nivcely parallel a similar vice or concern in a PC - those are perfect!

What I was rebelling against is the idea that every Ravenloft story should culminate in the darklord confrontation. Maybe it's just me and I've done the dinner with Strahd thing (we actually convinced him to clone my dead/dying Paladin... no strings attached... we were young, guys... very young...), and the trying to kill Sodo when I was younger and now the darklords son't impress me.

Or rather, I appreciate them as the source and the setting of all that great Ravenloft flavour. (And yeah - sometimes good should triumph over the Ultimate Evils.......... but not often. )

[Fido]

Of course, I'm not saying to bring in Darklords at every turn. I find it fun to get my players all scared about meeting a darklord...

They've never played ravenloft before, and some of them know the concept of darklords, although they have no clue as to who these people are. Imho, that's the best kind of player you can have.

So we were playing Feast of Goblyns and they met Akriel and Harkon Lukas. Now, about half a year later, me and my friend are standing in a gamesshop in town and the owner's talking about Ravenloft and about the book 'Death of a Darklord' that they're maybe going to rerelease.
This player of mine jumps at the sound of Akriel Lukas and shouts something like "We met the daughter of a darklord?! Wow! We were so lucky..."

It was so funny... They're so easy to scare!

Like stealing candy from a baby...


Okay that was offtopic. What I mean to say is that it would just be a real shame if you don't use those wonderful background stories that darklords have.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

My current campaign has gone about 3 years, in 13 weekend-long sessions, and the PC's have met 11 darklords:

Captain Garvyn
Gabrielle
Nathan Timothy (ex-Darklord)
Ghost Dancer (in a dream)
Morpheus (in a dream)
Harkon Lukas (in Scaena, not the real one)
Radaga (in Scaena, not the real one)
Daglan (in Scaena, not the real one)
Dominic
Ivan
Juste

They've dealt with aftermath of Elena and the schemings of Azalin and Vlad.

I definately agree with Rotipher and Bonaccio, not every (or maybe even any) adventure should culminate in a fight with a darklord. But to shy away from them completely cuts you off from much of what makes the setting great. Meeting them in social circumstances (when appropriate) and thwarting their plans from afar are very interesting opportunities to incorporate the great stories around them without treating them like the "final boss" of a videogame.

I had to give my pc's an inkling of what darklords are in order that they understand the stakes when playing Feast of Goblyns and The Evil Eye. But they still don't know for certain who any of them are, although they have suspicions.

Player knowledge vs. character knowledge can be tricky, but can also lead to some fun moments. My personal favorite: when Character A found out someone named Azalin Rex was involved in the adventure, but Player A didn't know who he was. Player B knew enough about RL to know who he was, but Character B knew nothing. So when Character A started asking around town if anyone knew where to find Azalin Rex, Player B nearly choked on his soda, but couldn't say anything in character.

[Johann Foxgrove]

What they are good for? Mmm. A though one. I think about it as a good movie. Needs to have a good villian as well. That does not implies the characters fighting the lord of every domain they step in, instead, I like to use them and think about them as puppet masters, the focus and evil mind above all else. For example: My characters acually killed three lords at the time... but almost every RL player also killed Radaga, Daegon and Gundar. They fought them becouse it was a part (a very interesting one) of the entire story. If my players suddendly decide to climb Ravenloft and fight Strahd, I will kill them without the minor remorse.
As I said before, the plot needs a master mind, and the Darklords are the villians per excellence. Use it! Just don't treat them as every ordinary enemy. One thing is an enemy, another very different one is a True Villian.

[Charney]

I must admit that player knowledge is what keeps me from using too often the darklords. I still remember when I ran Bleak House and the PCs saw Azalin going into the Doomsday device. A player shouted: It's Azalin, now we're doomed.

It didn't matter cause Azzy blew himself up but nothing annoys as much as that in a game. Just like when you describe a monster and a player shout it's name and probably with all the stats in his head.

But I must say that not using Darklords isn't the solution. Most are great characters with awesome backgrounds that you must put into use. They are great NPCs. You don't have to call them by their title though (which most DL don't know they have).

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

They've never played ravenloft before, and some of them know the concept of darklords, although they have no clue as to who these people are. Imho, that's the best kind of player you can have.

You are a lucky man, then. We've known (collectively) way too much for far too long.

Mind you, that can be interesting in different ways: it allows those players "in the know" to link up with some past canon material or darklord, as sort of a background elemtn.... Which can open up possibilities for interesting stories involving some darklords....

I remember one of our characters was a Boritsi (this was before LotB) and just the thought of having to go to hist "Aunt" Ivana's house was enough to have him making excuses to travel abroad! But, of course, he was being hunted by the clergy of Ezra (two different branches - for impersonating a cleric lol!) and he was looking to get his vengeance on one of the corrupt Sentires who... well, anyways. Suffice it to say that, what for new players would have been just an encouter at some rich woman's house, would be for players in the know doubly nerve-wracking and exciting.

Ah, good times... good times...

So - we have concensus - Darklords = good. (well, bad, but in a good way...)

[Isabella]

I have sometimes considered running a campaign where the Darklords are trusted superiors, friends, or allies of the PCs.

Not to say that the PCs would be evil people. But half of the Darklords have a country to run (leaving so little time for their nefarious plots), and quite a few of them get territorial when it comes to other sources of evil. That's where the PCs come in. Maybe your good friend Mr. von Holtz wants you to defend a village from a band of rouge vampires, or that charming gentleman by the name of Lucas wants you to deal with some troublesome werewolves that have been terrorizing the area.

The PCs never need to know that they are serving a greater evil.

[Undead Cabbage]

They've never played ravenloft before, and some of them know the concept of darklords, although they have no clue as to who these people are. Imho, that's the best kind of player you can have.

I'm in a very similar situation, only I've also kept my players from knowing about power checks as well. (that, and the dark powers, closed borders, reality wrinkles, etc). Faerunian players are so fun to play with ...

So far, they've caught on that 'you change in ways that reflect your actions' in RL, but they have no concept of the power's check or that one of their companions is falling into the path of corruption. This definately goes hand in hand with not telling the players what DLs are.

This works very well! Remember that RL fear is best kept as fear of the unknown. Players need to slowly but surely realize that they aren't playing your conventional campaign setting.

It's one thing to have all these dark facts hit you all at once. It's a whole other to have them seep into them, isolating them, gradually causing them to question everything they knew as fact.

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

I have sometimes considered running a campaign where the Darklords are trusted superiors, friends, or allies of the PCs.

Not to say that the PCs would be evil people. But half of the Darklords have a country to run (leaving so little time for their nefarious plots), and quite a few of them get territorial when it comes to other sources of evil. That's where the PCs come in. Maybe your good friend Mr. von Holtz wants you to defend a village from a band of rouge vampires, or that charming gentleman by the name of Lucas wants you to deal with some troublesome werewolves that have been terrorizing the area.

The PCs never need to know that they are serving a greater evil.

I'm really hoping my current DM has somethign like that planned... I'm playing a cleric of the Morninglord (which already involves soem pretty shaky history to serve as a God of Good... lol!) but I also believe that morninglord talks to me, guides me, and that he is moulding me to become the second coming of the Morninglord...

i know my DM is REALLY well read in Ravenloft lore - he's been running it since it's been possible to run Ravenloft - so I don;t put it past him... A livign saint... who is a good soul... but unwittingly begins to serve some other agenda, not entirely wholesome. I would relish the irony of it all and the potential for madness and corruption (I think I have some sort of PC deathwish for my characters.... hmm....)

[Undead Cabbage]

i know my DM is REALLY well read in Ravenloft lore - he's been running it since it's been possible to run Ravenloft - so I don;t put it past him... A livign saint... who is a good soul... but unwittingly begins to serve some other agenda, not entirely wholesome. I would relish the irony of it all and the potential for madness and corruption (I think I have some sort of PC deathwish for my characters.... hmm....)

Here's a question: is your DM a big fan of using the Time of Unparalelled Darkness concept? I somehow see a 'messiah' of the dawn playing some sort of a role, whether for good or evil.

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

i know my DM is REALLY well read in Ravenloft lore - he's been running it since it's been possible to run Ravenloft - so I don;t put it past him... A livign saint... who is a good soul... but unwittingly begins to serve some other agenda, not entirely wholesome. I would relish the irony of it all and the potential for madness and corruption (I think I have some sort of PC deathwish for my characters.... hmm....)

Here's a question: is your DM a big fan of using the Time of Unparalelled Darkness concept? I somehow see a 'messiah' of the dawn playing some sort of a role, whether for good or evil.

i toyed with that idea, or something like it, when I wrote my article for the BoSacrifices: Valeri Antonin. basically, the idea is that the church of Ezra believes that when the 5th book of ezra is written, the great plan will be revealed, likely heralding the time of unparralleled Darkness and some soert of final judgement.

So, I made this character who was trying to engineer a "false" messiah to get back at the church and hopefully precipitate the more drastic branches of the church into a frenzy.

But yeah - some sort of quesitonable messah is definitely the right feel for the Time of Unparalleled Darkness with everyone wondering - is he/she a saint or a madman? All while the world apparently comes to an end around them...

And it could very well come from the Morninglord's faith, sort of coming full circle - and you have to know that the Holy Symbol of ravenkind will somehow be involved in bringing about this dawn!