Is Ravenloft Dead?

[Charney]

First of all, I have a question. Where do we get the sales numbers about X or Y book? You say the Gaz don't sale well, where do we see such info? The only place I could find is the S&S webpage where 6/10 bestsellers are Ravenloft products with Gaz IV, released one year ago being number 9.

For that matter, if most of S&S bestsellers are RL books, it's indeed strange that they do not support it more.

Can't we do something like flood S&S with emails for more support? The logic is simple: more support=more sells= money to support such support.

I'm no economist but I do think it could work.

[Coan]

Well, my question would be, why don't the Gazetteers sell well, as compared to the other products? I mean, they include backgrounds on domains, storylines that the populace knows (as well as Dread Possibilities that they don't), stats for important NPCs and darklords... what more could we want?

This isn't meant just to be some mindless praise of the Gazetteers--but it really seems like they have most of what any Ravenloft DM is looking for. Plot hooks, detailed descriptions of flora and fauna, legends and tales spread by the townspeople of the domain, dress, common skin and eye-colors of the inhabitants... all things that breathe vital details into the setting we all love.

Even if you're completely new to the setting and know nothing at all about it, after you pick up the basic background materials (whether it's the RL PHB, RL DMG, RL Denizens of Darkness, or whatever), why wouldn't someone take the next step to "flesh out" the world in which they'll be playing?

For every DM there are roughly 3-5 players and Gaz's aren't the most player friendly books. So that cuts numbers down already on those who would usually want to flesh out a world.

But why aren't they player friendly? Well you have to remember most people aren't 'die hard' Ravenloft fans. It's a setting, to be used for a different type of adventure. I know that after I finish a campaign a change of pace and mood will be needed.

Also, why spend so much money to learn lots of facts on every part of the world when your character will only have encountered a select amount of it? Probably only a few domains max.

DM wise they are good, but DMs tend to only get the books needed for their adventures -not books on everything for the setting.

[Coan]

First of all, I have a question. Where do we get the sales numbers about X or Y book? You say the Gaz don't sale well, where do we see such info? The only place I could find is the S&S webpage where 6/10 bestsellers are Ravenloft products with Gaz IV, released one year ago being number 9.

For that matter, if most of S&S bestsellers are RL books, it's indeed strange that they do not support it more.

Can't we do something like flood S&S with emails for more support? The logic is simple: more support=more sells= money to support such support.

I'm no economist but I do think it could work.

Getting exact sales figures is difficult. Companies don't volunteer that information for competitive advantage reasons.

Now most important,

Don't use emails. Seriously. They don't work because they can be deleted/blocked/filtered or otherwise just ignored.

If you want to reach them send them mail by post. Internet petitions lack clout so if you want to do something like that you'd have to do it physically (so it is better to mail your request with each friend writing letters as well, petitions are hard for a rp game).

[Le Noir Faineant]

Daisy , I think you are wrong: the authors of CoD are Beth Bostic, Carla Hollar, and Tadd McDivitt.

I'll pass into history as one of the great RL chicks...
...

So the Kargatane brought the idea, but that's it. Its execution failure isn't theirs.

By the way, on the Internet, the medieval inquisitor's dread rule about truth applies : "ten presumptions equals one truth". Desdichado, you say you post late at night, but be careful not to let your lack of sleep make you write false things that takes a day on the board to deflate. Check your sources before, not after

Joël

Yes, Sir!

My drowsy mind tricked me... Will better not happen again.

When their parent company released Gaz 5 as a free web download, we ended up advertising it on the web, promoting a free Ravenloft trial, over the main D&D boards... What more can we say?

Joël

Really, that's your own fault. With the amount of material the FoS and before them, the Kargatane, produced and with all the energy you spend to give us *ahem* one of the best fan sites along the web, you pretty much do their job for WW.

Also, I must say - Ravenloft is not WotC or WW any more.
Whatever they do with the setting, for us younger players, RL will always be Kargatane and FoS!

[Jonathan Winters]

A lot of stuff to cover here…

I know a little demonizing goes a long way, but let’s not assume the developpers are evil people… If they were only looking for a quick buck, they would produce Forgotten Realms books. No slight intended to FR, it’s a different setting with different goals and mood. It might not be your cup of tea, but as a high-fantasy setting it is done well. I have even played it a couple of times and enjoyed it!

Could we get over HoL and CoD yet? It happened how long ago? I don’t want to excuse those books: They were not very good. But I remember people wanting to crucify the authors for creating the sheriff when CoD came out and now they are calling them geniuses for Toben the Many (an excellent character!). My point? The developpers made a mistake, then (I assume) learned from it and did something to improve the books! Bravo!

The media exposure to RL? I really can’t comment on that, because I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. MAYBE, and this is OTOH, the DEVs don’t get much support form WW? And if that is the case, then we should appreciate (read ‘’appreciate’’ not ‘’let anything go’’) what they are trying to do for the setting because they might have to work twice as hard to get things done…

But even with more publicity, one of the ‘’problems’’ RL has is that the books coming out are very often geared towards DMs I think. DT&DL seems like a pretty strong book (haven’t finished reading it yet), but it contains adventures or stories PCs aren’t meant to know. Don’t get me wrong, I am very happy we’re getting adventures, and so should everybody else who’s been asking for them for years now, but it MIGHT BE more of a niche market in this situation… LoB was very good, BUT a bit too much DM info I think.

Also, DT&DL is an adventure / story book. Those books DO NOT SELL AS MUCH as player books. Even though the amazing GAZs are not selling as well, the DEVs are taking a chance with a book like that. I think they should get congratulations for that. Who knows who they had to convince to get that book done?

I think what we are looking for here is a balancing act. We need books for DMs and PCs specifically and we need a few more books aimed at both. How easy is that to manage? Don’t know just now. For example, DT&DL could have included more Core Classes maybe, Feats, Prestige Classes, etc. Something related to each story for PCs too… Also, I think the editing (not sure that’s the right word here, I only have ‘’mise en page’’ in French in my head right now) needs to be revised in the sense that the books need clearer DM and PC sections. That would probably help.

As a last note, even though I still miss the Kargatane, let’s not forget: LoB, VRs Guides, DT&DL, MotRD… All of them, fairly strong books I think, except MotRD being maybe the weakest…

I guess what I am trying to say amidst all the rambling is there are two ways to look at this: either your glass is half-empty or half-full.

Patrick
(Sorry about the long post)

[Igor the Henchman]

See, with one hand S&S gives us a book we've been demanding for ages (Dark Tales) and with the other it takes away a series of books that have proven popular with the fanbase (the gazetteers). The longer Ms Cassada and Ms Rea are allowed to butcher the setting simply reduces the time it will take for Arthaus to cut its losses and drop the line. They're making bad decisions, they don't listen to the fanbase, they stop the one line of books that is successful.

The way I see it, there is a difference between not listening to the fanbase and not automatically following on random ideas tossed over the message boards. I see in DTaDL a sure sign that the developers are indeed listening.

Y'know, I remember a time when (from what the Kargatane once said in the Goat) Arthaus stated solid as rock it did not want to continue the CotN line. They said they would never produce a product that was just a 'book of adventures'. The fans also asked if any Masque of the Red Death material would be produced, and got another solid 'no' as an answer.

Then Jackie and Nickie come into the picture and all the sudden they're announcing a MotRD campaign expansion. And a year later, not only do we get Ashington Manor and the Blutkalte adventures and new RL fiction in DTaDL, but there's talk of ressurecting the Children of the Night.

I'm not trying to excuse the CoD and RLPH incidents, here, but to show that maybe, just maybe, there could be a brain at work behind the policies of the Ravenoft line. Raising pitchforks over every problematic decision is easy, but remember we see but parts of the mechanism that drives the line.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The developers have ultimate responsibility for the line. That means if a good book is released (like LotB, full of plot hooks, prestige classes, feats, spells, magic items, and latest updates on the activities of several darklords and other NPCs, "moving the setting along" as many people cry out for) they (along with the authors) deserve credit. And when something bad is released (Which, IMHO, hasn't happened since the RLPH in 2003, 2 years, and about 10 products ago) they (along with the authors) deserve the blame.

And since (from what I remember) they have been the developers almost from the beginning of the 3e line, (With the caveat of the "shadow development" work John Mangrum mentions in his author notes) you can't judge them on one or two bad books, but have to look at the line as whole. How have they been doing? How have they been handling dozens of authors and hundreds of obsessed internet fans? Pretty well I think, on the whole. A few missteps here and there, but stuff like the tarrokka deck, LotB and DT&DL shows they are listening to the fans, and that they care about the setting.

As for the fact that they don't play ravenloft, I don't think that can be held against them. They have said they are both big fans of the setting from way back, and I believe they said they don't play due to lack of time, which can hardly be held against them.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Not to be misinterpreted, I have to say that I actually like the 3e incarnation more than the 2e. Although there are still many details missing, the setting is more comprehensive and more fit to be played for itself, without having to introduce players from other planes.

It's just my setting.

[DarkDuo]

After reading all the postings on this topic, I find I have a few things to say.

First, thanks to everyone who understands that both Nicky & I DO support Ravenloft. When we were asked by White Wolf/Arthaus execs to become developers for the line several years ago, we jumped at the chance. It is one of our favorite settings, and our favorite FANTASY setting by a longshot. We care very deeply about what books are published and have fought for some books that otherwise might not have been published. Sometimes we won and sometimes we didn't. But we have always had the input from the fans in mind -- except that we also include those fans we meet that DON'T post on the Internet.

We fought very hard to publish adventures for Ravenloft, since they were for us the biggest asset of the original series. I have always collected modules whenever I could, even if just to read them. Finally, Andrew Bates enjoyed the Dark Tales proposal which came from, I believe, an idea proposed by Ryan Naylor. We saw it as a perfect way to give people adventures without simply publishing a module that would only be used once. We turned it into a handbook on storytelling, a book of fiction, and a collection of modifiable adventures. And we're glad people seemed to like it for the most part.

Second, any claims we have made that certain kinds of books don't sell have not originated with us but have come from higher ups in Arthaus/White Wolf. The information comes from people who have access to sales figures -- something we don't have at the developer level. We don't make up this info. We pass it on when people want to know why we make certain decisions.

Third, ALL our decisions are approved or disapproved at two levels. First, our immediate bosses at Arthaus/White Wolf have to give the okay for us to do each particular book. Second, the material has to be approved at Wizards before it's published. Our usual practice is to send the Arthaus Manager a list of potential books, along with a brief blurb telling what the book is about and why we think it's a good sell. Then we get a reply that tells us what books we CAN publish and what books we need to rethink, put on the back burner or just forget.

We are the DEVELOPERS of the line, not the Managers. We create or solicit outlines for the product, assign authors, try to make sure the text comes in on time, develop the material (which involves putting it all together, adding transitional text when necessary, catching as many mistakes as we can, and sending it to an editor for copy editing and statistics checking before sending it to the Arthaus production staff for layout and production. When it comes back, it's sent to Wizards for their approval. Only then does it go to printing and distribution.

Fourth, to those who think we only do this for the money, I have to say you are sorely misled about what kind of money freelance writers and developers make! We get paid in cents per word and make less per word than the writers we hire. As freelancers, we are paid as "work for hire," which means we get no benefits and the only "perks" we get are complimentary copies of the books we publish. Both Nicky & I have day jobs to pay the bills. We work as freelancers because we love to write and we love roleplaying games.

Fifth, though many if not most of you miss the Kargatane and their involvement in Ravenloft, we parted ways with them a couple of years ago for reasons I choose not to go into here, except to say that we are not the vile incompetent villains some people think we are. It was not our decision to split with them as a group, and one of their number still writes for us (see Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends).

Sixth, of course we take credit for jobs well done -- because we played a part in it. We do not, and never have, taken all the credit. We know that the authors and artists do the bulk of the work and we have never (to my knowledge) failed to mention that fact. But we do acknowledge our part in a job well done.

And not only do we take the blame for books that drew criticism, we usually have gotten pretty well slammed by the posters for what they consider our mistakes. We don't have to "take" the blame, it's pretty much dumped on us anyway!

Seventh, and finally, we don't play Ravenloft so much as we run it. We've run it at conventions and we've run it at our gaming club. We don't have a lot of time for gaming, however, since we have day jobs, our freelancing (which is another full time job) and a household to run. We've finally talked one of our friends into running MotRD for us at some future time, but that hasn't materialized yet. Do we play other games than Ravenloft? Yes, because our friends who run those games have other interests besides the Dread Realms. Would we play Ravenloft if someone asked us to? Darn straight we would!

Sorry for such a long post, but I feel some issues had to be addressed.

If you criticize us, please please make your statements true. Don't say we don't love the game. We do. Don't say we're incompetent. We aren't. Don't call us evil. We aren't. Don't say we don't care about the fans. We do.

Thanks,

Jackie Cassada
Ravenloft co-developer (along with Nicky Rea)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Another thing I was going to mention before. This may be a controvertial statement, and it may true of other settings too, but I believe RL on the whole is a DM's setting. What I mean by that is that ANY good product in the line is going to be more for DM's than for players, because the mystery inherent in the setting makes most info DM-only. Players can get a feel for their character's background by reading bits of the Gaz's, but otherwise, they're mostly for the DM.

What exactly can players use in any Ravenloft book:
1) Prestige and core Classes (and only if the DM approves)
2) Equipment (again, only if the DM lets them find it)
3) Spells (with DM approval)
4) Feats (with DM approval)
5) Flavor guidelines

Whereas nearly everything else is DM specific:
1) NPC backgrounds and stats
2) Plot hooks/Adventures
3) magic items (unlike FR or other settings where the DMG magic item list becomes a menu.)
4) Locations
5) Rules (power checks, fear, horror, madness, altered magic and psionics, OR, RMR, sinkholes of evil, etc.)

In shear volume, the DM parts are going to be much bigger. So the audience for most of the books is inherently limited.

[Jester of the FoS]

That's pretty... thorough...

Well, my question would be, why don't the Gazetteers sell well, as compared to the other products? I mean, they include backgrounds on domains, storylines that the populace knows (as well as Dread Possibilities that they don't), stats for important NPCs and darklords... what more could we want?

This isn't meant just to be some mindless praise of the Gazetteers--but it really seems like they have most of what any Ravenloft DM is looking for. Plot hooks, detailed descriptions of flora and fauna, legends and tales spread by the townspeople of the domain, dress, common skin and eye-colors of the inhabitants... all things that breathe vital details into the setting we all love.

Even if you're completely new to the setting and know nothing at all about it, after you pick up the basic background materials (whether it's the RL PHB, RL DMG, RL Denizens of Darkness, or whatever), why wouldn't someone take the next step to "flesh out" the world in which they'll be playing?

Kinda, yes. But if you were new and either chose not to read reviews or did not have access to them which would you pick?
* A book on villians, bad guys and antiheroes
* A book on geography and the landscape
or
* A book on a specific type of monsters

Really, after the initial campaign setting books (RL: PHB, RL: DMG, DoD) the main books that would appeal to a reader would be one of the VanRichten Guides or CoD/HoL. The RL: PHB has all the information one needs on a land, having to buy an extra book to play there seems like the money-grubbing tactics of Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

[Igor the Henchman]

Concerning the DarkDuo: I think Jackies's post on this thread clearly showed that the developers both listen and respond to what the fans have to say. While I still remember being none too pleased with the RLPH affaire, I'm currently very secure with them leading Ravenloft and appreciating what job they're doing at their developer level.

One question, though that I would very much like the DarkDuo would adress is:

Is Ravenloft dead? Will there be more releases? Can you say "yes" or "nay"?

"Yes" or "nay"?

Is Ravenloft dead?

Please...

Thank you.

-------------------------------------

Concerning Ravenloft being a DM-friendly world: I think its something that could be changed if we cared. Yes, the setting seems very dependant on the "big secrets" to be hidden from the players. To be honest, I never saw this state of things as healthy for the setting. Players should have their "cool bits" too. Do stuff for players. Do, I don't know, a player-friendly book on demihuman races in Ravenloft. A player-friendly book on detective-style investigation. A player-friendly book on societies and organisations a PC can belong to. I thought Legacy of the Blood would make an ideal player-friendly book, but for some reason, it mentions darklords at many places where it could have been easily avoided.

[Fido]

A player-friendly book on detective-style investigation. A player-friendly book on societies and organisations a PC can belong to.

I think this is a great idea. A book about detective-style gameplay would be superb. I don't know of anything like it.

I would also love to get an answer to the "Dead or Undead" question.

[Charney]

I'd like to say bravo to the darkduo for joining in the thread. Some nasty things have been said and it takes guts to respond to them in a respectful fashion.

I agree with lots of you: RL need player friendly books to survive in this market.

[DarkDuo]

Whether or not any line will continue is a question no developer can answer since that depends on so many factors that developers are not aware of nor do they necessarily have access to.

It's one of those topics developers are told not to discuss. We don't make predictions, any of us.

Jackie