Underutilized setting sources in canon

[The Dark]

Ravenloft's a mashup of bits and pieces from other settings, which is great for us homebrewers, but I got to thinking about which settings are unused or underused in the canon bits of Ravenloft (with the vast array of fanon, this topic would be much harder to address if I didn't limit it somehow).

It came to mind because my first 2e campaign setting was Birthright, and while Vorostokov was retconned into being from Birthright, it doesn't really do much with the setting. The original inspiration seems to have been something like "dark Russian folk tale," and that influence stuck more than anything Vos. That makes sense because, well, it's a retcon. Then I started thinking about other settings.

Dark Sun only has Kalidnay, which (in the TSR era) got a brief write-up in Forbidden Lore and then was basically ignored for the rest of the product line. It got more written about it in 4e, but that's a very different Ravenloft.

Oriental Adventures is a little underutilized, since while it has two domains, one (Rokushima Taiyoo) has practically no detail at all in canon and the other (I'Cath) is just a small series of combat encounters. It still does better than Arabian Adventures or Maztica, which get bupkis.

Since I'm not an expert on every setting, I was curious what the board hivemind thinks are some other settings got ignored or underutilized in their era?

[brothersale]

Mystra comes to mind (one domain and Meredoth's not a hugely linked to the setting due to his own nature, Doc Necrotic's addition in Quoth the Raven and Threshold are more representive), as does Krynn (dragonlance) at least as it relates to Drakov as he comes from another continent to the main setting.

Other have only been added later, Spelljammer (The Dread Space), planescape (Undead Sea Scrolls 2002: Karss) , Eberron (Dread Metrol), technically Arabian Adventures has Al-kathos (at least in the crowd created version from The Mordent Cartographic Society) but the rest have never been added such as Council of Wyrms, Ghostwalk and Jakandor

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Ebberon has Cyre 1313, but that's really one of the tiniest domains. Unfortunately I don't know the setting well enough to come up with another darklord from them.

As for Krynn - I think I'm not the first person who suggested Raistlin Majere could be a fascinating darklord. The thing is, that Raistlin canonically had a chance to commit an Act of Ultimate Darkness, and gave up the 'pleasure'.
As a Dragonlance reader - Thanks, Raist, for listening to common sense for once and not destroying your planet (and thank your brother even more for talking you out of it.)
But as a Ravenloft homebrewer, I can't help but thinking: What would happen if Caramon wasn't there to explain to Raistlin the consequences of him taking Takhisis's place? Or worse - if Raistlin heard everything he had to say, and still chose to kill him and go on with the plan?
On the one hand, a domain based on this 'alternate universe' idea could be fascinating. But on the other hand, it feels like ignoring Raistlin's character and choices. Cause Raistlin's thing is that he's just the man who'd fail 5 power checks but back down before the sixth. He's a textbook narcisist, but he knows it's a problem. He will and have used his friends as pawns, but has just enough conscience to be ashamed of it, even if he'll never apologise. His mind is a little too open to stuff like dark magic, killing gods etc, but that same open-mindedness lets him change his mind where every other man would think he'd gone too far. He's not a good person, but he's fluid between the various shades of gray (or red, if we go by High Sorcery customs) - not the obsidian black of a proper darklord. I want him in Ravenloft, but it feels unsporting to take by force a man who actually resisted the temptation.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

The simplest solution to my dilemma is to get Raist snatched by the mists as a 'weekend in hell' thing rather than as a darklord. Dump him somewhere and see what he does.
'Present' Ravenloft (as in, when canon left it) would be a few years after the War of Chaos (as in, when I left Dragonlace), making things convenient enough. I'd have him avoiding magic to keep his addiction at bay like he had in Dragons of Summer Flame, cause otherwise he'd just be overpowered. This would be about the shenanigans he can do without magic.
He'd absolutely get involved with the Fraternity in one way or another. But I also want to pit him against a hero(ine) matching him in intellect, who's good and kind but would take no sh!t from him. I think he needs a character like that to get him off his high horse. Van Richten is a good candidate, but this would require me to set the timeline a few years earlier - and maybe we should let a less famous NPC shine here?
And there's the question of where to drop him.
Sithicus feels obligatory, cause Lord Soth, but that's exactly why I don't want to start there - it feels cliche. I'd avoid Mordent too, simply because I have too many other fanfictions set there.
I think Falkovnia would be the funniest. It's a domain whose darklord is Krynnish too, but also one where a frail, mysterious mage would feel even more out-of-place than normally.


(Right. This is a DMs message board and I'm musing on funky fanfiction ideas. I'll call you when I have an actual adventure hook.)

[The Dark]

Mystra comes to mind (one domain and Meredoth's not a hugely linked to the setting due to his own nature, Doc Necrotic's addition in Quoth the Raven and Threshold are more representive),

Like Vorostokov, Meredoth's one of the retcons to add more settings to Ravenloft, and it shows.

as does Krynn (dragonlance) at least as it relates to Drakov as he comes from another continent to the main setting.

Surprisingly, Drakov was from Taladas all the way back in the Black Box. Given how little setting flavor he has, he feels like a Domains of Dread retcon but isn't. We also got Soth in 2e, but he didn't do a whole lot. The one I've wanted to do is the last Kingpriest of Istar. Safely historical so there's no risk of stepping on any toes, and a character whose actions caused huge amounts of death and suffering in the main setting.

Other have only been added later, Spelljammer (The Dread Space),

In TSR publications, the closest Spelljammer got to Ravenloft was a suggestion in Crystal Spheres that T'Laan could end up taken by the Mists, and an apparent Misting of a ship in the footnotes of The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook.

planescape (Undead Sea Scrolls 2002: Karss) , Eberron (Dread Metrol), technically Arabian Adventures has Al-kathos (at least in the crowd created version from The Mordent Cartographic Society) but the rest have never been added such as Council of Wyrms, Ghostwalk and Jakandor

Eberron and Ghostwalk I'm aware of existing, but I haven't read anything for either of them beyond the Cyre 1313 entry. Council of Wyrms and Jakandor I'm familiar with, but both would be difficult because they're both further from the "normal" of (A)D&D and they have mechanics that would need explanation (or a reference back to very old source material). Since I'm not counting fanon for this, neither Planescape nor Arabian Adventures have a domain (since Al-Kathos is story-only and I'm fairly certain the story doesn't connect it to Zakhara).

I was also thinking about what settings there are, and there are some pretty obscure ones like Malatra (the Living Jungle), Mahasarpa (a Web Enhancement for 3.0 Oriental Adventures), Tianguo (the setting for Dragon Fist), and Pelinore (TSR UK's setting presented as a serial feature in Imagine magazine).

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

The one I've wanted to do is the last Kingpriest of Istar. Safely historical so there's no risk of stepping on any toes, and a character whose actions caused huge amounts of death and suffering in the main setting.

Now that's a good idea. I just need to refresh my Dragonlance lore...

[The Dark]

The simplest solution to my dilemma is to get Raist snatched by the mists as a 'weekend in hell' thing rather than as a darklord. Dump him somewhere and see what he does...
But I also want to pit him against a hero(ine) matching him in intellect, who's good and kind but would take no sh!t from him. I think he needs a character like that to get him off his high horse. Van Richten is a good candidate, but this would require me to set the timeline a few years earlier - and maybe we should let a less famous NPC shine here?

Ravenloft timelines are always a bit wobbly as far as having a correspondence to other settings' timelines, but fortunately we have a solid connection because Lord Soth's entry to Ravenloft is dated to 357 AC by the end of the Blue Lady's War in Fifth Age materials and to BY 720 by Ravenloft materials. The year 357 AC is also the year Raistlin sealed himself in the Abyss. At that time, Rudolph van Richten is 49 and it's been 14 years since Erasmus's death. RvR will remain active for another 30 years and is 18 years older than Raistlin Majere. Dropping the "sleeping" Raistlin into Ravenloft during his time in the Abyss would allow him to be encountered at almost any time during the latter two-thirds of van Richten's adventuring career.

Given that when Raistlin comes back during the Summer of Chaos he gives up his magic to avoid being tempted by it, I'd be inclined to have him encounter one (or more) of the wizardly Darklords to see how power can corrupt with a wizard who matches him in arcane skill. Azalin's the most obvious choice, but possibly Hazlik or Meredoth could provide an interesting foil.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

The simplest solution to my dilemma is to get Raist snatched by the mists as a 'weekend in hell' thing rather than as a darklord. Dump him somewhere and see what he does...
But I also want to pit him against a hero(ine) matching him in intellect, who's good and kind but would take no sh!t from him. I think he needs a character like that to get him off his high horse. Van Richten is a good candidate, but this would require me to set the timeline a few years earlier - and maybe we should let a less famous NPC shine here?

Ravenloft timelines are always a bit wobbly as far as having a correspondence to other settings' timelines, but fortunately we have a solid connection because Lord Soth's entry to Ravenloft is dated to 357 AC by the end of the Blue Lady's War in Fifth Age materials and to BY 720 by Ravenloft materials. The year 357 AC is also the year Raistlin sealed himself in the Abyss. At that time, Rudolph van Richten is 49 and it's been 14 years since Erasmus's death. RvR will remain active for another 30 years and is 18 years older than Raistlin Majere. Dropping the "sleeping" Raistlin into Ravenloft during his time in the Abyss would allow him to be encountered at almost any time during the latter two-thirds of van Richten's adventuring career.

Given that when Raistlin comes back during the Summer of Chaos he gives up his magic to avoid being tempted by it, I'd be inclined to have him encounter one (or more) of the wizardly Darklords to see how power can corrupt with a wizard who matches him in arcane skill. Azalin's the most obvious choice, but possibly Hazlik or Meredoth could provide an interesting foil.

Thanks for the advice.

[IanFordam]

As a really minor reference: The backstory for Sheneya (from Children of the Night: Werebeasts) ties in with the Grand Snakemaster from the Al-Qadim setting.

[The Dark]

As a really minor reference: The backstory for Sheneya (from Children of the Night: Werebeasts) ties in with the Grand Snakemaster from the Al-Qadim setting.

Can you remind me where in Al-Qadim the Grand Snakemaster appears? There's a reference to one in the Monstrous Manual's Snake entry (under Elder Serpents), while Dragon #313 (a later 3.x reference) has the Grand Snakemaster as the Elder Serpent leader of a cult of Set in the "kingdom of snakes." I don't recall references in Al-Qadim products, but I may have forgotten something or it may be in a book I haven't read.

[IanFordam]

As a really minor reference: The backstory for Sheneya (from Children of the Night: Werebeasts) ties in with the Grand Snakemaster from the Al-Qadim setting.

Can you remind me where in Al-Qadim the Grand Snakemaster appears? There's a reference to one in the Monstrous Manual's Snake entry (under Elder Serpents), while Dragon #313 (a later 3.x reference) has the Grand Snakemaster as the Elder Serpent leader of a cult of Set in the "kingdom of snakes." I don't recall references in Al-Qadim products, but I may have forgotten something or it may be in a book I haven't read.

To the best of my knowledge, the Grand Snakemaster was first mentioned within the "Elder Giant Cobra" entry in the Assassin Mountain supplement.

[The Dark]

As a really minor reference: The backstory for Sheneya (from Children of the Night: Werebeasts) ties in with the Grand Snakemaster from the Al-Qadim setting.

Can you remind me where in Al-Qadim the Grand Snakemaster appears? There's a reference to one in the Monstrous Manual's Snake entry (under Elder Serpents), while Dragon #313 (a later 3.x reference) has the Grand Snakemaster as the Elder Serpent leader of a cult of Set in the "kingdom of snakes." I don't recall references in Al-Qadim products, but I may have forgotten something or it may be in a book I haven't read.

To the best of my knowledge, the Grand Snakemaster was first mentioned within the "Elder Giant Cobra" entry in the Assassin Mountain supplement.

That one I have...*wanders upstairs to find it*...it was already on my research table because I've been wondering whether anything in that boxed set would be useful for an AQ-based Ravenloft domain. Looking at the entry, it's basically identical to what wound up in the Monstrous Manual (it's not in the Monstrous Compendium Snake entry, I checked that too). Checking publication dates, Assassin Mountain preceded the Monstrous Manual by four months. It looks like it started out as an Al-Qadim legend, got adapted into the main product line, and then got used much later for Sheneya:

February 1993 - mention in Assassin Mountain MC entry for Cobra, Giant as a legend about the oldest elder serpent
June 1993 - mention in Monstrous Manual entry for Snake, mostly copying the Assassin Mountain information
November 1998 - mention in Children of the Night: Werebeasts, which refers back to the MM entry and confirms the Grand Snakemaster exists
November 2003 - mention in Dragon Magazine #313 as leader of an elder serpent cult of Set

Sheneya does tie it back in to Al-Qadim since the opening sentence of her entry says she's from Zakhara, the setting for Al-Qadim (although I don't detect much of its flavor in her write-up).

Dragon #313 uses it as a historic epithet for Sseth and a current title for one of Set's cult leaders. This could be incorporated into the existing story either as the cult leader being Hister's boss (and thus implying the cult of Set wanted to do something in Zakhara) or that the title is in opposition to the "true" Grand Snakemaster, and the whole tie-in with Set can be ignored. The latter doesn't really do anything for the character, whil I think the former could give Sheneya some extra flavor by having her be a devotee of Set.

[doctornecrotic]

Mystra comes to mind (one domain and Meredoth's not a hugely linked to the setting due to his own nature, Doc Necrotic's addition in Quoth the Raven and Threshold are more representive), as does Krynn (dragonlance) at least as it relates to Drakov as he comes from another continent to the main setting.

Other have only been added later, Spelljammer (The Dread Space), planescape (Undead Sea Scrolls 2002: Karss) , Eberron (Dread Metrol), technically Arabian Adventures has Al-kathos (at least in the crowd created version from The Mordent Cartographic Society) but the rest have never been added such as Council of Wyrms, Ghostwalk and Jakandor

I was actually about to bring up my Mystara crossover! Also, I did the celebrity appearance thing with Jaibul and the Black Raja from Voyage of the Princess Ark... a real deep cut for diehard Mystara fans. My blog went even deeper on Mystara crossover. I had one for the ancient Azcans, another Blackmoor one, one from Darokin, and NPCs plucked from the setting (including one of the mad D'Ambervilles.)

As for Spelljammer, an EVENTUAL proposal from Wildspace Fanzine is Mistspace, a netbook that will be offered as a collab with Fraternity of Shadows. More or less, it's a cluster that operates on Spelljammer logic. The misty boundaries function like wildspace does when going between "worlds" (domains). Likewise, the stars are nothing more than a glimmer of false hope, not actual gates into the phlogiston... so much as a fake phlogiston that leads you back to the cluster/"crystal sphere". Using fire will still make you explode though. We want to test the waters with a generic horror/dark fantasy issue first though. And when that's announced, we happily welcome fans from here onto that issue.

Big Mac, the Wildspace lead editor, wants to make a domain with Ghostwalk at some point BTW.

In TSR publications, the closest Spelljammer got to Ravenloft was a suggestion in Crystal Spheres that T'Laan could end up taken by the Mists, and an apparent Misting of a ship in the footnotes of The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook.

...

Eberron and Ghostwalk I'm aware of existing, but I haven't read anything for either of them beyond the Cyre 1313 entry. Council of Wyrms and Jakandor I'm familiar with, but both would be difficult because they're both further from the "normal" of (A)D&D and they have mechanics that would need explanation (or a reference back to very old source material). Since I'm not counting fanon for this, neither Planescape nor Arabian Adventures have a domain (since Al-Kathos is story-only and I'm fairly certain the story doesn't connect it to Zakhara).

I was also thinking about what settings there are, and there are some pretty obscure ones like Malatra (the Living Jungle), Mahasarpa (a Web Enhancement for 3.0 Oriental Adventures), Tianguo (the setting for Dragon Fist), and Pelinore (TSR UK's setting presented as a serial feature in Imagine magazine).

I want to say either War Captain's or Complete Spacefarer's gives further rulings on Ravenloft, in which The Mists cannot reach into the Phlogiston for some reason... something I'd choose to ignore.

I'll need to dive into Karrs. I made "The Rule of Threes" Cluster before I knew of it, which needs a revival and redo. It's something I could revisit here some day? Basically, Blood War torn domains of more or less Hell On Earth. One's an authoritarian dystopia, the next is a maniacal if dysfunctional theocratic cult, and the last is a free for all collapsed society... with "mist fiends" fighting each other in the spaces in between. And well, technically, Rule of Threes is an extended crossover. It also takes from Toril and Mystara.
Beyond that, I have Antorek, named after a villain from a Planescape game. Think a mix of Markovia's Doctor Moreau inspirations, The Outer Plane of The Beastlands/Gate Town of Faunel, '80s body horror cinema, various exploitation cinema, and the last episode of classic Doctor Who - Survival... and you have the idea. Things degenerate into beastmen, usually falling into one of many mad cults, lest they found an out or a cure.

I wasn't satisfied with conclusions made in Dread Metrol, which is more tied to post-RL setting cosmologies and logic. So, Entropolis came from that. That too included Metrol, as well as others (like the zombie apocalypse domain that was made for the fanon cluster here!)

I should really look at the very obscure settings for inspiration. Not to mention, there are teased settings by both TSR and WotC creators, such as the setting that Far Realm originated from. I don't recall if Larawang Inukit was taken from Malatra or not...

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Wait, there's a magazine called 'Imagine'?

What if they merged with 'Dragon'?

Then they'd be...
I'll show myself out.

[The Dark]

Wait, there's a magazine called 'Imagine'?

What if they merged with 'Dragon'?

Then they'd be...
I'll show myself out.

Imagine was TSR UK's house magazine from 1983-85, running in parallel to Dragon (TSR US's magazine). Personnel-wise it had a good bit of overlap with White Dwarf. As a fiction publisher it started the careers of a few minor writers like Neil Gaiman.

I want to say either War Captain's or Complete Spacefarer's gives further rulings on Ravenloft, in which The Mists cannot reach into the Phlogiston for some reason... something I'd choose to ignore.

I think it was War Captain's, because I feel like I've known about that for longer than I've owned a copy of Spacefarer's. The justification seemed to be the same reason clerics can't recover high-level spells - the Phlogiston is cut off from the planes.

I should really look at the very obscure settings for inspiration. Not to mention, there are teased settings by both TSR and WotC creators, such as the setting that Far Realm originated from. I don't recall if Larawang Inukit was taken from Malatra or not...

That's (more-or-less) Neverness, Bruce Cordell's setting. This Piazza thread goes into the various sources that tie into it from 2e all the way up to 5e. I think there are some good possibilities for a domain based on it, but it's way down my priority list currently.