Dementliue discontinuity

[The Dark]

One of the oddities with old Dementlieu is that it had plenty of mini-adventures in anthologies (Pity the Child in CotN: Ghosts, Waxing Horrific in CotN: The Created, Darkness and Secrets in CotN: Werebeasts, and The Taskmaster's Leash in Chilling Tales), but none of them directly involve the Darklord.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

That suits him as an unseen puppetmaster, though.
You could connect Dominic to any number of nastiness, but, and this is the important bit: never directly. He's the embodiment of "I employ (read: enslave) people for this sort of thing."
Fighting Dominic is like playing blindfolded chess, where the opponent is phoning in instructions to a representative.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

From what I recall, the new girl supposedly took over, rather than replaced Dominic. There's a hook that he's still alive somewhere in the domain.

Personally, I don't care too much for 5e Dementlieu. If I were to keep it, it would be as a "party island" in the Bay of Pernault. Third edition Dementlieu is a hotbed of appearance and manipulation, perfect for a social intrigue-style of play, which some players are going to enjoy a lot. Appearance is important in third edition, but it's one you have to work at, not just a magical illusion. There is genuine conflict between the haves and have-nots, and both a dreadful fluidity and intractibility in the social spectrum. It is so dangerous to rise, so easy to fall...

Dominic's curse suits him, to my way of thinking. He is the great manipulator, who wants to be adored and pampered. As soon as he starts to have genuine feeling (or desire) for anyone, they immediately start to find him revolting, and his control fails.
It's different from the object of Strahd's sole focus slipping through his grasp again and again, in that Strahd's conflict with Tayana is personal and recurring; he has plenty of luck (of all sorts) with other women, but it is Tatyana he desires most, and she is the one person he'll never have.

I was going to say VRGtR doesn't say anything about her taking over (she just woke up in the estate), but then I checked the Dementliue Adventures random table. (I'm so doing that one, it would be hillarious.)

And I get your point about Dominic's curse, but if that was the case, the curse would be 'any person he likes immediatly finds him revolting'. The phrasing I've seen on Mistipedia (correct me if it's wrong) is 'any woman he woos' - meaning, it's limited to sexual attraction and make it sound like 'the incel curse'. Which is completely unsuitabe: Dominic became a darklord as a child, for manipulating his nanny into unaliving herself. How is that even remotely related to romance or sexuality?
(I'm seriously asking. I don't know all the lore yet and I'm geniunely trying to understand.)

[Rock of the Fraternity]

From what I recall, the new girl supposedly took over, rather than replaced Dominic. There's a hook that he's still alive somewhere in the domain.

Personally, I don't care too much for 5e Dementlieu. If I were to keep it, it would be as a "party island" in the Bay of Pernault. Third edition Dementlieu is a hotbed of appearance and manipulation, perfect for a social intrigue-style of play, which some players are going to enjoy a lot. Appearance is important in third edition, but it's one you have to work at, not just a magical illusion. There is genuine conflict between the haves and have-nots, and both a dreadful fluidity and intractibility in the social spectrum. It is so dangerous to rise, so easy to fall...

Dominic's curse suits him, to my way of thinking. He is the great manipulator, who wants to be adored and pampered. As soon as he starts to have genuine feeling (or desire) for anyone, they immediately start to find him revolting, and his control fails.
It's different from the object of Strahd's sole focus slipping through his grasp again and again, in that Strahd's conflict with Tayana is personal and recurring; he has plenty of luck (of all sorts) with other women, but it is Tatyana he desires most, and she is the one person he'll never have.

I was going to say VRGtR doesn't say anything about her taking over (she just woke up in the estate), but then I checked the Dementliue Adventures random table. (I'm so doing that one, it would be hillarious.)

And I get your point about Dominic's curse, but if that was the case, the curse would be 'any person he likes immediatly finds him revolting'. The phrasing I've seen on Mistipedia (correct me if it's wrong) is 'any woman he woos' - meaning, it's limited to sexual attraction and make it sound like 'the incel curse'. Which is completely unsuitabe: Dominic became a darklord as a child, for manipulating his nanny into unaliving herself. How is that even remotely related to romance or sexuality?
(I'm seriously asking. I don't know all the lore yet and I'm geniunely trying to understand.)

It's not just about sexual attraction, in my opinion.
Dominic spent his childhood being coddled and pampered by his female relatives. The nanny, he drove to suicide because she tried to discipline him before he went off the rails. (Too late.)
Rather than an incel curse, it's a childish desire, an obsession with being coddled and cherished. Sex is not alien to it, but he can get that anywhere, even in his loveless marriage: he has no shortage of children.
He wants women to love and adore him. His curse makes this impossible by making him hideous in the eyes of any woman he feels an attraction to, wants to get close to, and none of his powers of manipulation can counteract the effect. He could force his attentions on them, blackmail or extort them, but none of that would earn him the affection and warmth he craves.
He is the unseen king of his own kingdom, but he's left out in the cold all the same.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

From what I recall, the new girl supposedly took over, rather than replaced Dominic. There's a hook that he's still alive somewhere in the domain.

Personally, I don't care too much for 5e Dementlieu. If I were to keep it, it would be as a "party island" in the Bay of Pernault. Third edition Dementlieu is a hotbed of appearance and manipulation, perfect for a social intrigue-style of play, which some players are going to enjoy a lot. Appearance is important in third edition, but it's one you have to work at, not just a magical illusion. There is genuine conflict between the haves and have-nots, and both a dreadful fluidity and intractibility in the social spectrum. It is so dangerous to rise, so easy to fall...

Dominic's curse suits him, to my way of thinking. He is the great manipulator, who wants to be adored and pampered. As soon as he starts to have genuine feeling (or desire) for anyone, they immediately start to find him revolting, and his control fails.
It's different from the object of Strahd's sole focus slipping through his grasp again and again, in that Strahd's conflict with Tayana is personal and recurring; he has plenty of luck (of all sorts) with other women, but it is Tatyana he desires most, and she is the one person he'll never have.

I was going to say VRGtR doesn't say anything about her taking over (she just woke up in the estate), but then I checked the Dementliue Adventures random table. (I'm so doing that one, it would be hillarious.)

And I get your point about Dominic's curse, but if that was the case, the curse would be 'any person he likes immediatly finds him revolting'. The phrasing I've seen on Mistipedia (correct me if it's wrong) is 'any woman he woos' - meaning, it's limited to sexual attraction and make it sound like 'the incel curse'. Which is completely unsuitabe: Dominic became a darklord as a child, for manipulating his nanny into unaliving herself. How is that even remotely related to romance or sexuality?
(I'm seriously asking. I don't know all the lore yet and I'm geniunely trying to understand.)

It's not just about sexual attraction, in my opinion.
Dominic spent his childhood being coddled and pampered by his female relatives. The nanny, he drove to suicide because she tried to discipline him before he went off the rails. (Too late.)
Rather than an incel curse, it's a childish desire, an obsession with being coddled and cherished. Sex is not alien to it, but he can get that anywhere, even in his loveless marriage: he has no shortage of children.
He wants women to love and adore him. His curse makes this impossible by making him hideous in the eyes of any woman he feels an attraction to, wants to get close to, and none of his powers of manipulation can counteract the effect. He could force his attentions on them, blackmail or extort them, but none of that would earn him the affection and warmth he craves.
He is the unseen king of his own kingdom, but he's left out in the cold all the same.

Now it makes more sense.
And regarding the Bay of Pernault compromise - it's a good solution, but I think I'll go with the 'Saidra took over' explanation in my campaign, cause it's a good way of showing the players how the mists can mess up with the world.
Like, imagine a party sent on a quest in Dementlieu. Their mentor gives them a detailed explanation about Dominic's powers and weaknesses, and claims to have a perfect plan.
And then they arrive, and nobody storming knows who Dominic is. Including NPCs the mentor expected to be able to rely on. Everyone acts as if the land had always been ruled by the Duchess Saidra. Characters the mentor knew as commoners are now (so called) nobles, and vice versa. What's real and what's fake? What the hell is going on? Maybe Dominic pops up and asks their help in overthrowing Saidra - is that the right choice?
I think this would really make Dementlieu live up to its name.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I was going to say VRGtR doesn't say anything about her taking over (she just woke up in the estate), but then I checked the Dementliue Adventures random table. (I'm so doing that one, it would be hillarious.)

And I get your point about Dominic's curse, but if that was the case, the curse would be 'any person he likes immediatly finds him revolting'. The phrasing I've seen on Mistipedia (correct me if it's wrong) is 'any woman he woos' - meaning, it's limited to sexual attraction and make it sound like 'the incel curse'. Which is completely unsuitabe: Dominic became a darklord as a child, for manipulating his nanny into unaliving herself. How is that even remotely related to romance or sexuality?
(I'm seriously asking. I don't know all the lore yet and I'm geniunely trying to understand.)

It's not just about sexual attraction, in my opinion.
Dominic spent his childhood being coddled and pampered by his female relatives. The nanny, he drove to suicide because she tried to discipline him before he went off the rails. (Too late.)
Rather than an incel curse, it's a childish desire, an obsession with being coddled and cherished. Sex is not alien to it, but he can get that anywhere, even in his loveless marriage: he has no shortage of children.
He wants women to love and adore him. His curse makes this impossible by making him hideous in the eyes of any woman he feels an attraction to, wants to get close to, and none of his powers of manipulation can counteract the effect. He could force his attentions on them, blackmail or extort them, but none of that would earn him the affection and warmth he craves.
He is the unseen king of his own kingdom, but he's left out in the cold all the same.

Now it makes more sense.
And regarding the Bay of Pernault compromise - it's a good solution, but I think I'll go with the 'Saidra took over' explanation in my campaign, cause it's a good way of showing the players how the mists can mess up with the world.
Like, imagine a party sent on a quest in Dementlieu. Their mentor gives them a detailed explanation about Dominic's powers and weaknesses, and claims to have a perfect plan.
And then they arrive, and nobody storming knows who Dominic is. Including NPCs the mentor expected to be able to rely on. Everyone acts as if the land had always been ruled by the Duchess Saidra. Characters the mentor knew as commoners are now (so called) nobles, and vice versa. What's real and what's fake? What the hell is going on? Maybe Dominic pops up and asks their help in overthrowing Saidra - is that the right choice?
I think this would really make Dementlieu live up to its name.

It sounds like the makings of an interesting campaign, and I hope it goes well.
In a conflict between Dominic and Saidra at their full power, I grant you Saidra would have the advantage in a direct confrontation. But Dominic would avoid such a confrontation like the plague. He'd use catspaws and deceit, rumour and blackmail. Saidra's house of mirrors would soon start to show cracks...

I could easily see Dominic selling himself as the lesser of two evils to a band of adventurers.
"Say what you will about me, but I keep Dementlieu going and in a position of power and prominence within the Core. The new girl has turned my whole country into a carnival's house of mirrors. How long do you think my people can survive amid this chaos? How long before Dementlieu's enemies try to prey on this wounded, maddened beast of a land?
"Surely the only ethical choice, in the interest of the people, is for you to ... remove ... this usurper. I can restore order and save the country, but I need to be able to take up the reins of power without a mad witch blasting me into ashes. So please, help me save Dementlieu, mes amis."

(He'd probably try to turn one or more of the PCs into an Obedient, just in case they succeed. And have about a dozen more schemes going already.)

[Strahdsbuddy]

I thought the comparison of playing a fighter vs playing a warlock was a very good one. Running a campaign in old Dementlieu is complex enough to make a DM pause and say "maybe I'll stick to werewolves."in my teen years o I thought it was sort of lame ...now it's my favorite.

Also we have left off the rest of Dominic's curse: his powers don't work on new members of his own family. So the only chess pieces he can't move are the ones he has the most interest in moving! He is constantly frustrated by their inability to see how he has set them up for what he vehemently knows to be the best course just to have his nephew show up and say "I'm joining the army." The manipulator then needs to start over, and maybe he finds his rival is already controlling officers in the gendarmes so he can't keep his family off the front lines.

[The Dark]

I meant to make this point in my earlier post and got distracted...

Despite having a pretty good update of the House of Lament, most of 5e Ravenloft is oriented towards the Darklords being the primary antagonist for adventures. For 2e Ravenloft, a lot of the standalone adventures feature Darklords, but there are plenty of brief adventure write-ups that don't center the Darklords (and often don't involve them at all). I think that's a shortcoming in the 5e version, because there should be adventures that don't involve direct conflict with a domain's Darklord. I think this is why, when I read the 5e Guide, it felt like the book didn't know what to do with Darkon, because it's missing its Darklord and that meant it didn't have an obvious antagonist to be pitted against an adventuring party. As always, a DM's Ravenloft can vary, but in general I feel like it's easier to use Ravenloft for most parties if the range of antagonists is broader than the Darklords.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Also we have left off the rest of Dominic's curse: his powers don't work on new members of his own family. So the only chess pieces he can't move are the ones he has the most interest in moving! He is constantly frustrated by their inability to see how he has set them up for what he vehemently knows to be the best course just to have his nephew show up and say "I'm joining the army." The manipulator then needs to start over, and maybe he finds his rival is already controlling officers in the gendarmes so he can't keep his family off the front lines.

I 'left it out' because I didn't know about it. Either I missed that part or it wasn't memtioned in his Mistipedia article.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

It's not just about sexual attraction, in my opinion.
Dominic spent his childhood being coddled and pampered by his female relatives. The nanny, he drove to suicide because she tried to discipline him before he went off the rails. (Too late.)
Rather than an incel curse, it's a childish desire, an obsession with being coddled and cherished. Sex is not alien to it, but he can get that anywhere, even in his loveless marriage: he has no shortage of children.
He wants women to love and adore him. His curse makes this impossible by making him hideous in the eyes of any woman he feels an attraction to, wants to get close to, and none of his powers of manipulation can counteract the effect. He could force his attentions on them, blackmail or extort them, but none of that would earn him the affection and warmth he craves.
He is the unseen king of his own kingdom, but he's left out in the cold all the same.

Now it makes more sense.
And regarding the Bay of Pernault compromise - it's a good solution, but I think I'll go with the 'Saidra took over' explanation in my campaign, cause it's a good way of showing the players how the mists can mess up with the world.
Like, imagine a party sent on a quest in Dementlieu. Their mentor gives them a detailed explanation about Dominic's powers and weaknesses, and claims to have a perfect plan.
And then they arrive, and nobody storming knows who Dominic is. Including NPCs the mentor expected to be able to rely on. Everyone acts as if the land had always been ruled by the Duchess Saidra. Characters the mentor knew as commoners are now (so called) nobles, and vice versa. What's real and what's fake? What the hell is going on? Maybe Dominic pops up and asks their help in overthrowing Saidra - is that the right choice?
I think this would really make Dementlieu live up to its name.

It sounds like the makings of an interesting campaign, and I hope it goes well.
In a conflict between Dominic and Saidra at their full power, I grant you Saidra would have the advantage in a direct confrontation. But Dominic would avoid such a confrontation like the plague. He'd use catspaws and deceit, rumour and blackmail. Saidra's house of mirrors would soon start to show cracks...

I could easily see Dominic selling himself as the lesser of two evils to a band of adventurers.
"Say what you will about me, but I keep Dementlieu going and in a position of power and prominence within the Core. The new girl has turned my whole country into a carnival's house of mirrors. How long do you think my people can survive amid this chaos? How long before Dementlieu's enemies try to prey on this wounded, maddened beast of a land?
"Surely the only ethical choice, in the interest of the people, is for you to ... remove ... this usurper. I can restore order and save the country, but I need to be able to take up the reins of power without a mad witch blasting me into ashes. So please, help me save Dementlieu, mes amis."

(He'd probably try to turn one or more of the PCs into an Obedient, just in case they succeed. And have about a dozen more schemes going already.)

Thanks for the advice!

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I also expect he'd meddle in Saida's "court" through blackmail and extortion.
Dominic knows who the nobles of the domain are. He could easily threaten to reveal everyone's true status through (anonymous) letters and messengers. Throw in a few Obedients, and he could get agents very, very close to his rival...

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

This was a lovely discussion. I feel like I understand all sides a lot better.
I still like Saidra, but I see now that in her current sketch there isn't enough material for a prolonged campaign in her version of Dementlieu.
But...
This could easily be fixed with a little bit of homebrew.

So let's get in-world.
Dominic was a cunning man. He had an innate talent for manipulation, as well as a noble's education and some help from the mists. His Dementlieu was one of The Core's centers of culture. While a terrible person, he was undoubtedly a good politician.
Saidra, on the other hand... She's evil too, but her evil is impulsive, driven by jealousy and imposter syndrome. She wants to be a duchess like a 5 yo girl wants to be a princess - she likes the fancy dresses and balls and being considered important, but she has no idea what to do with actual power. Under her rule, Dementlieu is a pale shadow of what it once was.
Isn't it terribly convenient? to replace a cunning, manipulative darklord too clever to let you confront him directly with an emotionally unstable youth who has zero experience with politics and believes her reign is based on a lie?
If this isn't enough to convince you of conspiracy, consider Saidra's background: her Act of Ultimate Darkness depended on so many outer factors: the duke's death, the wish-granting spirit, the plague...
I'm not saying she didn't choose to do it, she absolutely did, but she wasn't supposed to face that choice. If not for these remarkable circumstances, the odds are Saidra would have grown to become an insufferable but normative person. It's almost like someone had detected a girl with potential for great evil, and had gone to great lengths in order to make sure she fulfils it.
Maybe it was simply the dark powers, maybe a darklord with agents outside of Ravenloft, maybe wererats. Who was that? How did they arrange it? What's their interest to overthrow Dominic?

Even barring intentional schemes. Once Saidra is there, other rulers in The Core would 100% try to take advantage of her inexperience and of her torment. How is she handling? Is she used as a pawn by another villain? Do two rival darklords fight over her? Is she learning quickly, trying to outmanoeuvre forces she doesn't completely understand? Does she need the players' help, and what unlikely circumstances make helping her their only logical option?

Here's your complex political intrigue campaign.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I also expect he'd meddle in Saida's "court" through blackmail and extortion.
Dominic knows who the nobles of the domain are. He could easily threaten to reveal everyone's true status through (anonymous) letters and messengers. Throw in a few Obedients, and he could get agents very, very close to his rival...

Amazing. (VRGtR claims that Saidra is the only true noble now, but if we already assume that most original residents remained... Maybe the domains original nobles are now poor? And don't remember beings nobles, but can recall if showed evidence?

[Rock of the Fraternity]

This was a lovely discussion. I feel like I understand all sides a lot better.
I still like Saidra, but I see now that in her current sketch there isn't enough material for a prolonged campaign in her version of Dementlieu.
But...
This could easily be fixed with a little bit of homebrew.

So let's get in-world.
Dominic was a cunning man. He had an innate talent for manipulation, as well as a noble's education and some help from the mists. His Dementlieu was one of The Core's centers of culture. While a terrible person, he was undoubtedly a good politician.
Saidra, on the other hand... She's evil too, but her evil is impulsive, driven by jealousy and imposter syndrome. She wants to be a duchess like a 5 yo girl wants to be a princess - she likes the fancy dresses and balls and being considered important, but she has no idea what to do with actual power. Under her rule, Dementlieu is a pale shadow of what it once was.
Isn't it terribly convenient? to replace a cunning, manipulative darklord too clever to let you confront him directly with an emotionally unstable youth who has zero experience with politics and believes her reign is based on a lie?
If this isn't enough to convince you of conspiracy, consider Saidra's background: her Act of Ultimate Darkness depended on so many outer factors: the duke's death, the wish-granting spirit, the plague...
I'm not saying she didn't choose to do it, she absolutely did, but she wasn't supposed to face that choice. If not for these remarkable circumstances, the odds are Saidra would have grown to become an insufferable but normative person. It's almost like someone had detected a girl with potential for great evil, and had gone to great lengths in order to make sure she fulfils it.
Maybe it was simply the dark powers, maybe a darklord with agents outside of Ravenloft, maybe wererats. Who was that? How did they arrange it? What's their interest to overthrow Dominic?

Even barring intentional schemes. Once Saidra is there, other rulers in The Core would 100% try to take advantage of her inexperience and of her torment. How is she handling? Is she used as a pawn by another villain? Do two rival darklords fight over her? Is she learning quickly, trying to outmanoeuvre forces she doesn't completely understand? Does she need the players' help, and what unlikely circumstances make helping her their only logical option?

Here's your complex political intrigue campaign.

And for the BIG freakout: what if it was Dominic who set this up as part of a long con? Maybe he wants to draw out and destroy the Brain. Maybe he wants to get his hooks in the Van Richten Society. Maybe it's all a plan to once again secure his position - and earn him the love of the whole domain by fixing himself in the minds of his family and citizens alike as the great hero of the nation. Meanwhile, he harvests a crop of powerful heroes as his new Obedients.
He ends up as shadow king no matter what happens, his authority restored and polished up, his resources expanded. People know how much worse things cam be when he's not in charge, so they're afraid to move against him.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

This was a lovely discussion. I feel like I understand all sides a lot better.
I still like Saidra, but I see now that in her current sketch there isn't enough material for a prolonged campaign in her version of Dementlieu.
But...
This could easily be fixed with a little bit of homebrew.

So let's get in-world.
Dominic was a cunning man. He had an innate talent for manipulation, as well as a noble's education and some help from the mists. His Dementlieu was one of The Core's centers of culture. While a terrible person, he was undoubtedly a good politician.
Saidra, on the other hand... She's evil too, but her evil is impulsive, driven by jealousy and imposter syndrome. She wants to be a duchess like a 5 yo girl wants to be a princess - she likes the fancy dresses and balls and being considered important, but she has no idea what to do with actual power. Under her rule, Dementlieu is a pale shadow of what it once was.
Isn't it terribly convenient? to replace a cunning, manipulative darklord too clever to let you confront him directly with an emotionally unstable youth who has zero experience with politics and believes her reign is based on a lie?
If this isn't enough to convince you of conspiracy, consider Saidra's background: her Act of Ultimate Darkness depended on so many outer factors: the duke's death, the wish-granting spirit, the plague...
I'm not saying she didn't choose to do it, she absolutely did, but she wasn't supposed to face that choice. If not for these remarkable circumstances, the odds are Saidra would have grown to become an insufferable but normative person. It's almost like someone had detected a girl with potential for great evil, and had gone to great lengths in order to make sure she fulfils it.
Maybe it was simply the dark powers, maybe a darklord with agents outside of Ravenloft, maybe wererats. Who was that? How did they arrange it? What's their interest to overthrow Dominic?

Even barring intentional schemes. Once Saidra is there, other rulers in The Core would 100% try to take advantage of her inexperience and of her torment. How is she handling? Is she used as a pawn by another villain? Do two rival darklords fight over her? Is she learning quickly, trying to outmanoeuvre forces she doesn't completely understand? Does she need the players' help, and what unlikely circumstances make helping her their only logical option?

Here's your complex political intrigue campaign.

And for the BIG freakout: what if it was Dominic who set this up as part of a long con? Maybe he wants to draw out and destroy the Brain. Maybe he wants to get his hooks in the Van Richten Society. Maybe it's all a plan to once again secure his position - and earn him the love of the whole domain by fixing himself in the minds of his family and citizens alike as the great hero of the nation. Meanwhile, he harvests a crop of powerful heroes as his new Obedients.
He ends up as shadow king no matter what happens, his authority restored and polished up, his resources expanded. People know how much worse things cam be when he's not in charge, so they're afraid to move against him.

Amazing. Bravo. Wanna write it together?