Fan-Led Children of the Night Poll

[IanFordam]

Since Doc Necrotic and KingCorn have re-rocked the boat...

[IanFordam]

Giving this thread a one-time-only bump to ensure that it remains visible for anyone who might wish to cast their votes before the poll closes on 09/20.

[alhoon]

I wish all the best to people hoping to contribute in this. I wish I had the time and energy, as I truly wish this project to succeed!

[Galeros]

What are Wild Things?

[IanFordam]

What are Wild Things?

"Children of the Night: The Wild Things" was the post where Speedwagon proposed a CotN volume featuring deadly animals and plants: https://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11563

[alhoon]

Just to be clear:
1. I love liches.
2. I don't think the core can sustain more liches, it's not like 18th level wizards are a dime a dozen.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Just to be clear:
1. I love liches.
2. I don't think the core can sustain more liches, it's not like 18th level wizards are a dime a dozen.

They don't have to be new ones, for instance there are many liches described in VRGttLich, such as the Crimson Arcanus. There are vassaliches and Andres Duvall as well as Tomes of lich creation and Lich's Phylactery‎ or the potion for the creation of a lich, for lower level parties.

Mother Dismass (female halfling lich wizard 11), Listed under "Authority Figures" for Aluk Septentrion
Umbran the Shadow Lich from the Book of Shadows
Grandmother Nichia (female human lich, wizard 8 )
Phantom's Bane
Moonbane
Foedus (male caliban vassalich rogue 2/wizard 3)
Grathelax
Nature's Sorrow (male human lich druid 13)
Nightblood (a male human lich Necromancer 20 residing in Liffe)
Yako Vormoff (male human vassalich necromancer 4)
Vice-Chancellor August Montalva (male human lich, wizard 12)
Unnamed Dream Haunting Lich (VRGttLich p.26)
Unnamed Bone Lich (VRGttLich p.26)
Redfist (Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium II p.158-159)
Vort (male human lich, wizard 12 Chilling Tales p.21-22,27)
Professor Erik van Rijn (male human lich Transmuter 8/Fraternity of Shadows 6)

[IanFordam]

Just to be clear:
1. I love liches.
2. I don't think the core can sustain more liches, it's not like 18th level wizards are a dime a dozen.

They don't have to be new ones, for instance there are many liches described in VRGtLiches, such as the Crimson Arcanus. There are vassaliches and Andres Duvall as well as Tomes of lich creation and Lich's Phylactery‎ or the potion for the creation of a lich, for lower level parties.

Mother Dismass (female halfling lich wizard 11), Listed under "Authority Figures" for Aluk Septentrion

Yeah, what Meph said. I would encourage contributors to consider expanding upon liches mentioned only briefly in the Van RIchten''s Guide and to consider variant liches such as the ones mentioned above. A collection of nothing but 18th level wizards would be implausible and, worse yet, boring.

[Jeremy16]

Just to be clear:
1. I love liches.
2. I don't think the core can sustain more liches, it's not like 18th level wizards are a dime a dozen.

They don't have to be new ones, for instance there are many liches described in VRGtLiches, such as the Crimson Arcanus. There are vassaliches and Andres Duvall as well as Tomes of lich creation and Lich's Phylactery‎ or the potion for the creation of a lich, for lower level parties.

Mother Dismass (female halfling lich wizard 11), Listed under "Authority Figures" for Aluk Septentrion

Yeah, what Meph said. I would encourage contributors to consider expanding upon liches mentioned only briefly in the Van RIchten''s Guide and to consider variant liches such as the ones mentioned above. A collection of nothing but 18th level wizards would be implausible and, worse yet, boring.

I disagree.

I'd much rather see other people's take on their own liches than shackle their ideas to established canon. Where's the creativity in that?

When dealing with these Creatures of the Night at all the best attitude to take is that while yes, all of these guys could exist in the Campaign Setting, in reality they should be treated as tools for the DM to pick and choose from. I mean, even the Kargatane published the Children of the Night: Demons netbooks, where if you were to accept all of those fiends to be operating at once the Core would essentially be a living hell! (These are characters that Van Richten himself said are extremely rare, after all.)

Just my 2 cents.

[IanFordam]

Okay, clearly I did not express myself well. Let's see if I can do better, second time around.

My intention was not to constrain anyone to using a lich from canon but to point toward possible sources for inspiration. Personally, I don't have an idea for a lich-related NPC or adventure yet. My starting point may well be a canonical lich, but there's nothing to say I have to end there. If someone has an idea for a custom lich, one who steps outside of the twin shadows of Azalin Rex and the Certain Dead Gentleman Whose Name Begins With the Letter V, then they don't need my suggestions.

As an example of creating something new from canon, let's look at Nightblood from The Book of Crypts. In his original appearance he is a 20th level necromancer. Despite that I feel he's one of the least interesting characters in all of 2e/3e lore. On the other hand, according to The Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer, Nightblood's phylactery has been broken apart, and his power has been sharply reduced. As such, Nightblood wants desperately to reunite the pieces of his phylactery. Now that's an adventure hook, and the PCs don't have to be Tier 4 to survive it!

Your point about a netbook being a toolkit is well taken.

[Jeremy16]

Okay, clearly I did not express myself well. Let's see if I can do better, second time around.

My intention was not to constrain anyone to using a lich from canon but to point toward possible sources for inspiration. Personally, I don't have an idea for a lich-related NPC or adventure yet. My starting point may well be a canonical lich, but there's nothing to say I have to end there. If someone has an idea for a custom lich, one who steps outside of the twin shadows of Azalin Rex and the Certain Dead Gentleman Whose Name Begins With the Letter V, then they don't need my suggestions.

As an example of creating something new from canon, let's look at Nightblood from The Book of Crypts. In his original appearance he is a 20th level necromancer. Despite that I feel he's one of the least interesting characters in all of 2e/3e lore. On the other hand, according to The Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer, Nightblood's phylactery has been broken apart, and his power has been sharply reduced. As such, Nightblood wants desperately to reunite the pieces of his phylactery. Now that's an adventure hook, and the PCs don't have to be Tier 4 to survive it!

Your point about a netbook being a toolkit is well taken.

I agree for the most part. No one wants to see half a dozen carbon copy level 20 liches which is easily what something like a COTN: Liches could devolve into.

But there's lot of options out there to differentiate these guys. How many prestige classes do wizards have that they can specialize in? Off the top of my head there's the Cancer Mage from the BoVD plus the Blood Magus from Complete Arcane. I think those types of classes could introduce some neat gimmics to play around with. What about a Vermin Lord that controls rats (an interesting NPC to introduce to Richemulot perhaps?) or a druidic lich obsessed with mushrooms or toxic fungi?

For the record, I myself have ideas for a psionic lich that is trying to gain enough power to defeat the mindflayers in Bluetspar (and doesn't care who he has to hurt in order to get it) and an elemental lich that resides in the Sea of Sorrows. And then there's that bone lich (an undead Osteomancer, natch) that I referrenced in my Persons of Ill-Repute article that I eventually want to stat out...

[Mistmaster]

Archibald Everlast is a Lich, too.

[The Dark]

For a lich book, some additional variety could also be added by looking at 2e's variant liches, most of which are from Ravenloft MC 3 (drow lich, defiler lich, elemental lich, psionic lich), but also appeared in things like Red Steel (inheritor lich) or MC Annual 2 (Suel lich).

Some of those can be spellcasters of much lower level (the defiler, drow, and elemental are all 11 HD for the base creature and the Suel lich can be as low as 15th level), drow liches in particular can be either wizards or priests, some aren't necessarily spellcasters (psionic and inheritor), and the Suel lich is a Negative Energy spirit possessing a living body.

[IanFordam]

I agree for the most part. No one wants to see half a dozen carbon copy level 20 liches which is easily what something like a COTN: Liches could devolve into.

Exactly my concern.

But there's lot of options out there to differentiate these guys. How many prestige classes do wizards have that they can specialize in? Off the top of my head there's the Cancer Mage from the BoVD plus the Blood Magus from Complete Arcane. I think those types of classes could introduce some neat gimmics to play around with. What about a Vermin Lord that controls rats (an interesting NPC to introduce to Richemulot perhaps?) or a druidic lich obsessed with mushrooms or toxic fungi?

For the record, I myself have ideas for a psionic lich that is trying to gain enough power to defeat the mindflayers in Bluetspar (and doesn't care who he has to hurt in order to get it) and an elemental lich that resides in the Sea of Sorrows. And then there's that bone lich (an undead Osteomancer, natch) that I referrenced in my Persons of Ill-Repute article that I eventually want to stat out...

... and each of those possibilities deftly sidesteps my concern.

[IanFordam]

For a lich book, some additional variety could also be added by looking at 2e's variant liches, most of which are from Ravenloft MC 3 (drow lich, defiler lich, elemental lich, psionic lich), but also appeared in things like Red Steel (inheritor lich) or MC Annual 2 (Suel lich).

Some of those can be spellcasters of much lower level (the defiler, drow, and elemental are all 11 HD for the base creature and the Suel lich can be as low as 15th level), drow liches in particular can be either wizards or priests, some aren't necessarily spellcasters (psionic and inheritor), and the Suel lich is a Negative Energy spirit possessing a living body.

These are all viable variants as well.