Ravenloft Demographics out of whack?

[tomokaicho]

I call on all that is dark and occulted and cast thread necromancy!

Seriously though, the demographics are completely wrong. You cannot support the fine arts on a tiny population base. The societies could not exist as presented.

[Mistmaster]

I agree with you that's why my mistword is bigger znd more populated.

[Strahdsbuddy]

From a size standpoint, the Core would need to be double the scale from Feast of Goblyns just to have enough arable land to feed the canonical populations from the gazeteers. I've never been one to increase populations; what can I do with 25,000 citizens I can't do with 5,000? But I DO want to feed them.

The other option, however, is to use the temporal fugue beneath old Arak and in the Shadow Rift. It is possible the fey were growing things underground at a rate that far exceeded the surface ability to feed people. It may have staved off starvation once Mordent and Darkon appeared. For more on this topic, see my latest Core Genesis in the mausoleum.

I challenge that the fine arts cannot be supported by a small population; it all depends how valuable art is to the society. If a playwright is considered valuable, it would reflect poorly on the leadership if he/she starved to death while others had the means to stop it. Artists and entertainers existed in less developed regions, and even if they needed to have a "day job" there has always been value in bringing joy into the banal life of a peasant farmer. Take Dementlieu for example; it is a jewel of culture because supporting those arts are considered fashionable, and people of means are actually in competition to sponsor artists. Once sponsored, it would be a reflection on the sponsor if the artis was destitute....unless their art had fallen out of favor. I can even see sponsoring the arts in other lands as a method of expanding influence. There may not be a Barovian burgomeister inderested in maintaining a playhouse in his village, but if there is a patron willing to "colonize" it and foot the bill, why wouldn't they?

And take culture into consideration as well. Kartakass has a teeny population and is far fromt he cultural center of the Core. But the whole batch of them sing, because it is a part of their culture. And the best are considered their leaders. Art will come in varying levels of proficiency, of course, but any audience is enough to keep them all from starving at the same time, I think.

[Pizza]

I read the first page so disregard if this comes up later, but the magical production of food as well as magical aid to food production shouldn’t be discounted. I know wizardry is rare and untrusted, but a fellow who can cast a spell to make a feast appear out of thin air could do quite well on the black market in a city, and all the people he’s displacing from peasanting could move on to more complex professions.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Temples could also conjure food to feed the masses and gain their love and support.
If you have their stomachs, their hearts and minds are likely to follow.

[tomokaicho]

Temples could also conjure food to feed the masses and gain their love and support.
If you have their stomachs, their hearts and minds are likely to follow.

We don't really have that in the Ravenloft lore, or the lore of any setting, really. I think I remember temples doing some of that with a city under siege (in another setting), but I could be confabulating.

My issue isn't whether the population can be fed. I just assume that they can be fed since they are still alive. The issue as I see it is that you have very complex societies in the Ravenloft setting, including arts communities that appear to rival Europe of the late 1700s, without the necessary population to support it. Is 1/3rd of the population of Dementlieu an artist or other skilled person? I don't know but given the small population compared to the various cultural institutions, you would think so.

This is typical of TSR settings. The Dark Sun setting had the City of Urik ostensibly having a palace multiple times larger than the Chinese Forbidden City, in a population of 30,000 people. The city supposedly has various classes, castes, artisans and craftsmen, and so on. The fluff indicates a cosmopolitan city. The math suggests that its a small, tight knit community.

I guess what I am getting at is that TSR were hopeless with population demographics, and any number they give should be taken with a grain of salt. Just go with the fluff, forget the numbers.

[alhoon]

We actually have something like that in Har'Akir where the fountain in the center of the village is water of sustenance and one drink can keep you alive for an entire day.

[Rucht Lilavivat]

It depends on how you look at it in terms of population. In 1340, London sported a population of about 40,000. It was a major metropolis, considered to be teeming with life. My hometown, which would considered to be small to mid-sized sports 70,000 people. So, my mid-sized to small town is bigger than London was during one of its high points.

1340 is pretty much the high Middle Ages. So, if you want to go for a Middle Ages setting, the populations listed in Ravenloft are just right.

The population of London does swell to around 200,000 or more around the time of Shakespeare, however. So, it does depend on the feel that you are going for. But even that number...200,000 is not that big if you look at, say, the U.S. today. Many towns of populations of 200,000 would not be places you've heard of if you lived outside of the U.S.

I have always found the population sizes of Ravenloft to be just right. Particularly if you look at the villages and towns depicted in movies like Black Death or Centurion. Having spent a good deal of time around medieval towns, they don't seem very big to me.

The trick is that Ravenloft's technology level often gets into the Renaissance, Reformation, or even the Baroque period, which had bigger populations. So...eh. You could really go either way.

Personally, what I do with the smaller populations features, I have games where everyone knows everyone else. News travels fast. And you cannot get lost in a crowd. If you do something of note, every tavern from here to there (and there are only a few) will know about it. I like that for my Ravenloft games. It makes it feel more claustrophobic in a way.

[alhoon]

London is not a very good example though. London had a whole rural and quite Empty England around it. The entire England had 4-6 millions before the plague.