Jester's Review of Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft

[Resonant Curse]

One workaround fot that is that upon doing some.detective work and digging around, it turns our she was adopted.

[Resonant Curse]

Or possibly vampire Tatyanna killed Lyssa and replaced her, possibly as a meams to avoid Strahd's attention long enough to get the power to take him.

[alhoon]

After some rumination and pondering everyone's general uncomfortableness over the idea that Lyssa Von Zarovich is/may be/could be the current reincarnation of Tatyana, I just thought of something: How would Strahd react to the revelation that his (several-great) grand niece Lyssa is/may be/could be Tatyana's current reincarnation?

Depends of if she was a vampire, or not.
- Not a vampire: Go for it.
- Vampire: Go into a philosophical / theological debate with himself: Do vampires even have souls? Is the bloodsucking monster that used to be alive and used to have Tatyana's soul the reincarnated Tatyana, or not? In the end, since he wants to turn Tatyana to a vampire, Strahd would probably decide that "OK, so she's already a vampire. I have a whole eternity to convince her".

[Zilfer]

You make an excellent point, but my counterpoint is that Mina is turning into a minion of the night. She is not one yet. If I might extend the Dracula metaphor, my worry is that "Dracula" would function much more differently if Mina were already a dhampir at the start of the story, rather than becoming one over the course of the story. Narratively, those two things are worlds apart. But of course, Mina turning into a vampire during the story does a substantial amount to inspire dread: pretty much everyone around her knows that she's fallen victim to an almost-unstoppable curse. For all intents and purposes, if they don't kill the Count, she is lost. It was precisely the same when Strahd turned Ireena in our campaign. But that all depended on the story beginning with her not being any sort of vampire.

I hope that clarified my point further. To be clear, I'm not saying that starting Ireena in Lyssa's vampiric body is objectively a bad thing. I am saying it will be more narratively challenging for DMs concerned about narrative and horror, and it might take a really creative one to find a way to draw loss and dread from that hook. Everyone else's mileage can and will vary; I'm certainly well aware of that.

— onmyoji

I guess that depends on where you end up starting the story. Definitely hits differently if you are starting with the Vampirism already in affect. Personally I'd probably run it as she's currently seeking that out and succeeds during play with her plan (with the possibility the group convinces her the 'ends don't justify the means' if the party learns of it or is able to prevent her from doing it. There's also a few logistics she'd have to figure out like how did she become a vampire and not a vampire thrall? Does she have another vampiric ally? (Leo Dilisnya? ) Refocusing before i go off on another tangent. The other way I might run it if she's already a vampire is not to reveal herself until she's sure she can trust the party enough to work with her, and establish Strahd's evil has driven her to these extremes. I'd love to see my party discuss whether they trust Lyssa to walk into the sun after fighting strahd, and if it was worth risking an alliance. They'd definitely be more trusting of a Dhampir which is why i suggested such a possibility. Maybe her vampirism is cured after Strahd's death like Mina.

I will say if you drive home the familial relationship and Strahd's unnatural lust for her that's a whole nother level of horror that you could play on. Just thought of a third way to potentially run the hook is she accepted vamparism straight from Strahd to perhaps the party's horror if they are already familiar with her, and then she turns around letting them know she had to. It's our best shot at taking him down. "It's so he'll let his guard down. He thinks he's won." sort of move. I kind of do see Ireena being willing to self sacrifice for such a goal.

Anyways to each their own! I'm excited to see what game stories appear on the internet in the coming years with that hook out there though among the other ones. Especially Darkon.

[onmyoji]

I guess that depends on where you end up starting the story. Definitely hits differently if you are starting with the Vampirism already in affect. Personally I'd probably run it as she's currently seeking that out and succeeds during play with her plan (with the possibility the group convinces her the 'ends don't justify the means' if the party learns of it or is able to prevent her from doing it. There's also a few logistics she'd have to figure out like how did she become a vampire and not a vampire thrall? Does she have another vampiric ally? (Leo Dilisnya? ) Refocusing before i go off on another tangent. The other way I might run it if she's already a vampire is not to reveal herself until she's sure she can trust the party enough to work with her, and establish Strahd's evil has driven her to these extremes. I'd love to see my party discuss whether they trust Lyssa to walk into the sun after fighting strahd, and if it was worth risking an alliance. They'd definitely be more trusting of a Dhampir which is why i suggested such a possibility. Maybe her vampirism is cured after Strahd's death like Mina.

I will say if you drive home the familial relationship and Strahd's unnatural lust for her that's a whole nother level of horror that you could play on. Just thought of a third way to potentially run the hook is she accepted vamparism straight from Strahd to perhaps the party's horror if they are already familiar with her, and then she turns around letting them know she had to. It's our best shot at taking him down. "It's so he'll let his guard down. He thinks he's won." sort of move. I kind of do see Ireena being willing to self sacrifice for such a goal.

Anyways to each their own! I'm excited to see what game stories appear on the internet in the coming years with that hook out there though among the other ones. Especially Darkon.

Certainly good points. I'll have to ponder all of that further for sure.

— onmyoji

[Resonant Curse]

Depends of if she was a vampire, or not.
- Not a vampire: Go for it.
- Vampire: Go into a philosophical / theological debate with himself: Do vampires even have souls? Is the bloodsucking monster that used to be alive and used to have Tatyana's soul the reincarnated Tatyana, or not? In the end, since he wants to turn Tatyana to a vampire, Strahd would probably decide that "OK, so she's already a vampire. I have a whole eternity to convince her".

Since Strahd knows at least vaguelly that she always reincanates, he might be furious that someone else managed to do it and destroy Tatyana so that she will respawn again as a mortal so he gets another chance.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Either that, or he'd regularly hit her with Extended Command Undead and try to tame her by means of (denying her) food.

[Mistmaster]

I will play her as a Lawfull Good Vampire, and would turn Sthad cursein an eternal dance of love and hate with his equally immortal foil.

[onmyoji]

Since Strahd knows at least vaguelly that she always reincanates, he might be furious that someone else managed to do it and destroy Tatyana so that she will respawn again as a mortal so he gets another chance.

Is it said anywhere in the lore that he knows this, or is that something we've just assumed? Just curious because in the big campaign I'm running, I am specifically addressing what happens when Strahd finds out that he's been constantly reincarnating, which he had not previously been aware of. Though this takes place substantially later than both CoS and the ToUD. To each their own, of course, but again, I never read anything anywhere about Strahd being cognizant of his reincarnations or his ability to inevitably reincarnate.

— onmyoji

[Resonant Curse]

Since Strahd knows at least vaguelly that she always reincanates, he might be furious that someone else managed to do it and destroy Tatyana so that she will respawn again as a mortal so he gets another chance.

Is it said anywhere in the lore that he knows this, or is that something we've just assumed? Just curious because in the big campaign I'm running, I am specifically addressing what happens when Strahd finds out that he's been constantly reincarnating, which he had not previously been aware of. Though this takes place substantially later than both CoS and the ToUD. To each their own, of course, but again, I never read anything anywhere about Strahd being cognizant of his reincarnations or his ability to inevitably reincarnate.

— onmyoji

I had meant he knew Tatyana reincarnates since he has tried multiple times to transform her. I can't state the sources of that off the top of my head, but I know it is around. He also does know that if he gets destroyed most of the time he would reform. I believe the Tales of Ravenloft anthology had a short story where it happened?

[onmyoji]

I had meant he knew Tatyana reincarnates since he has tried multiple times to transform her. I can't state the sources of that off the top of my head, but I know it is around. He also does know that if he gets destroyed most of the time he would reform. I believe the Tales of Ravenloft anthology had a short story where it happened?

OH! I'm sorry I misread. I definitely know Strahd is aware that she reincarnates, but I thought you were saying he was aware of his own reincarnations. But I'll definitely check out the Tales from Ravenloft story. Thanks!

— onmyoji

[Resonant Curse]

The Ravenloft anthology has some nice stuff in it. The one by James Lowder dealing with Soth is nice too.

[kourkenko]

I had a problem with the book, i wasn't able to put the finger on it but...

The more i think about it, the more it seems this book is not for us or to better phrase it: we are not the target audience. I looked at the age of the d&d5 players and the majority is between 15 to 17 years old.
Van Richten's guide to Ravenloft is not Ravenloft as we knew it but, imo, Disney's Ravenloft (Hasbro is making Little poney after all... ), it's a watered down version of the setting where everything that made Ravenloft, namely horror, disappears. It is a dark fantasy setting, not a horror one.

The difference: Dark Fantasy is about heroes, horror is about victims. Look at the artwork, all characters are heroes, they are not afraid contrary to the old ones (hour of the knife for example, the cover is a perfect illustration of that fact). The characters in the new setting don't have any restrictions in the use of magic, magical objects or even action, the power checks disapeared. Just look at the first page among domains, in the rarity of magic: Magic is rare but it doesn't mean the players are limited which means they already have an advantage.
Almost all lineages in d&d5 have darkvision, which is a problem because the first fear is the fear of the dark.
Their are no rules for fear, terror, horror or madness. Nothing.

Which just mean the setting, as all other in 5th, is tailored for the players to be super heroes, stomping the bad guy servitors before kickking him in the rear. The cover say "unleash the horrors of Ravenloft" and the back cover "face your fears". It is simply not true. Their is as much horror in the setting now than in Theros.

Ravenloft was about playing a character that was the perfect weak victim as its beginning, dealing with the unknow against old, dark forces protecting, and cursing at the same time, unbreakable evil. If players were clever, tenacious and sometimes lucky enough, they could survive and perhaps thrive against the evil, becoming beacons of light and hope. This struggle and character's development just disapeared.

The characters comes, they stomp, stomp again, and again to be sure, they win and go back to where they come from. The struggle disapear because it came along the worldbuilding. Before, the darklords were in the shadow or so powerful they were out of reach of the players at their beginning, now they are at the center and the players's main target. So when players appear in Ravenloft, the only question to ask is "who is at the center of the story ?", when they have their answer, they have their target and their way home.

By destroying the worldbuilding, they destroyed the possibilty of characters living all their career of adventurers (victims ^^) in the domain of dread. It is a "week end in Disneyland because it would be too much scary or triggering otherwise". They played it too safe.

Well even if bland i kind of happy ro see our setting back, i hope it will sell well enough to see another book.

[Resonant Curse]

A relatively minor change, but one I haven't seen voiced, the no orcs in Ravenloft (for whatever reason that was a thing, I have never heard a reason behind it) is out. One of the pictures is of an orc hero that was bitten by a vampire.

[Five]

Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana. So we have the choice between incompetent writting team or... incest is cool now ? WTF is this writting team ?!

Christian/Adam and Eve digs aside (biting tongue! Heh), the incest angle assumes that Strahd's obsession with Tatyana is sexually-based.

What if Strahd's obsession isn't sexually-based?

Strahd, human Strahd, was a warlord who got whatever it was that he wanted. So much so that he became so apathetic as to begin obsessing on his mortality/himself. Sergei was, to him, all that he could never have again. Youth, turning back of time, the roads not taken, etc. And Tatyana was, and still is, an extension of Sergei. One might even say externalised Sergei, or, Strahd's dwindling/deflected guilt at being so jealous of Sergei (his own wasted youth; missed opportunities etc), and still (deflected) guilt over his own bloody hands in his brother's death.

In short, Tatyana/Sergei/undoing of wasted years/guiltless conscience is something, the one and only thing, he can never possess. His lust for Tatyana is not sexual; it's in part a lust for Final Rest, though filtered through a multi-faceted lens of Ego, Guilt, Madness, etc.

Tatyana is Strahd's rusted angel. Over the centuries, depending on your personal timeline, Strahd still doesn't see it, or get what she truly represents.

Feeling sympathy for Strahd? You shouldn't. His pact with "Death" (as defined by YOU) says it all about how far this monster will go to get what he wants, and how far he'll go to avoid looking himself square in the mirror...

Just a few surface thoughts. Alternate take. Whatever you want to call it. Not sure if any of makes sense though, outside of my head. ?

Also, although I have yet to read the book (and won't be able to for some months), I was thinking about keeping 2/3E Falkovnia Falkovnia as most of us know it, but changing 5E Falkovnia a bit by flavouring it with Ancient Rome. I always thought it should be ported, and twisted, to RL...

And lastly, Jester, I too like your dread possibilities in Who's Doomed. It comes off as both catering to 5E crowd (the "new") as well as defiant stance for RL pre-5E (the "old"). Good on you man. Thanks.