Undead Senses and Emotions

[Mistmaster]

I see things in a different way. Entropy is a natural force which avoid stagnation and cancerverse-like degeneration. At the same time, life trascends biology allowing unlife to raise. As their sentience is not dependent by biology I can't see why theyr emotions should degrade. No matter the age.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I see things in a different way. Entropy is a natural force which avoid stagnation and cancerverse-like degeneration. At the same time, life trascends biology allowing unlife to raise. As their sentience is not dependent by biology I can't see why theyr emotions should degrade. No matter the age.

That's actually part of my head canon. Sentience, in D&D, is a matter of the soul. Negative energy degrades the soul and thus degrades the mind attached to it. There are other factors not related to negative energy to consider. The first is simply age; even elves aren't immortal and lack the necessary mental faculties to deal with existing for centuries beyond their allotted time. As people grow older their views start to ossify even while they're alive, thanks to experience and accrued wisdom, and they have the benefit of still being alive. Most undead are mentally and emotionally static, unable to truly grow. Some become more powerful, and certain powerful types like liches and vampires do continue to learn and advance in their classes, but the change from life to undeath destroys their emotional growth. Their emotions begin to stagnate like a pond and turn foul.

Another is the simple reality of being undead. A ghoul needs to justify eating flesh if it wants to continue to exist. A vampire must reconcile the fact they now feed on the life's blood of the living. Ghosts are often intensely jealous of those who still have physical bodies and can enjoy things like eating or feeling certain textures. It's often just easier for them to believe the living are "lesser" than themselves.

These attitudes are often reinforced by the nature of what now fuels their existence. Negative Energy is actually symbolized as a form of stagnation and entropy in 2e with the Negative Quasi-Elemental Planes where the Negative Material Plane (as it was called then) touches the Elemental Planes. Air becomes Vacuum. Earth turns to Dust. Fire dies and leaves Ash. Water dries and Salt is all that's left. All of them are metaphysical rather than literal. Things don't just die when exposed to negative energy, they stagnate and turn into the lifeless versions of what they once were. In time even those will fall apart into nothing.

Hence why I feel that negative energy destroys the emotions of the undead. Just as it slowly decays the physical or spiritual form without something to sustain existence--the blood or flesh of the living, emotional resonance, regular rituals--the mind also decays. Those who became undead through no fault of their own are most likely to resist such. But those who chose their state are already wicked to a certain degree and likely don't even see a problem with letting things like empathy turn to dust.

[Mistmaster]

I do not agree, for the reasons I mentioned above; Negative energy did not to need to corrupt a soul or tarnish it's emotion; Salt, Ash, Vacuum and Dust are all elements important for life; it's the opposite of stagnation; Vacuum allows movement of the air, salt is essential to preserve food and gives it flavour; ash fertilize the ground, and dust is the way land move.

[Five]

Salt, Ash, Vacuum and Dust are all elements important for life; it's the opposite of stagnation; Vacuum allows movement of the air, salt is essential to preserve food and gives it flavour; ash fertilize the ground, and dust is the way land move.

Reads to me that, between yourself and High Priest Mikhal, you are describing a potential...fullness. Cause and effect. Compost (decay) is great for growth sorta thing. Duality of Nature. Mom's Grimoire. Whatever.

Try blending the two and who knows, maybe it could lead to some insight into cracking open some (Undead) skulls and seeing what makes 'em go. Doesn't have to be a wall.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Salt, Ash, Vacuum and Dust are all elements important for life; it's the opposite of stagnation; Vacuum allows movement of the air, salt is essential to preserve food and gives it flavour; ash fertilize the ground, and dust is the way land move.

Reads to me that, between yourself and High Priest Mikhal, you are describing a potential...fullness. Cause and effect. Compost (decay) is great for growth sorta thing. Duality of Nature. Mom's Grimoire. Whatever.

Try blending the two and who knows, maybe it could lead to some insight into cracking open some (Undead) skulls and seeing what makes 'em go. Doesn't have to be a wall.

I agree that a blend would be interesting. In fact it's sort of what I've been trying to get at. In balanced amounts with positive energy, negative energy represents death and decay. No force is dominant and thus the cycle of life, death, and rebirth is unchanged. When one force is dominant, that's where things start getting metaphysical.

[Mistmaster]

Yes, and I agree; I was merely arguing against the necessary corruption of the undead state that I felt you Micheal was championing;

[Five]

No force is dominant and thus the cycle of life, death, and rebirth is unchanged. When one force is dominant, that's where things start getting metaphysical.

I'm onboard with that. Which is why anything constructed of "pure energy" (Positive, Negative, Elemental, etc) should have...consequences for the vessel (carrier, avatar, being, etc). In that sense, it only makes sense that a being constructed from/formed by Negative energy (or Positive energy for that matter; grim, emotionless Angel Warriors ) would find itself stripped of those things that more balanced individuals possess, such as emotions. Eventually, as previously stated, the Negative energy burns away this residual balance, resulting in, over time, a being that is incapable of positive emotions at best, all emotion at worst (base creature/creature of instinct).

Depends if you equate Positive and Negative with specific emotions really. If emotions are to be considered neutral (the externalisation/weaponization of emotions is the actual "Good", or "Evil", "Positive" or "Negative", and not the emotion itself), then this muddies the waters some.

[ewancummins]

My usual take on this is that undead feel no pain from ordinary physical causes(which is part of why they are not subject to critical hits in 3E), but may be subject to pain from supernatural sources or effects.


A sword blow doesn't cause a vampire any agony. Sunlight, holy water, or a cross pressed into its face causes suffering. The monster recoils from what truly harms it.


Ghosts don't (usually) have solid bodies. They don't feel pain from objects passing through them, but their feel the harmful disruption from magic that can harm them.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I haven't been back to this topic for weeks. Life's been busy (work, family, trying to get back to school).

I feel like I have to clarify what I meant by emotions being decayed by negative energy. If negative energy is the force of entropy that eventually destroys all things, then it makes sense that it deadens emotions. Starting with the more positive ones that are so hard to maintain and so easily ruined until just the negative ones are left. Eventually even those are eroded away until nothing is left but an emotional numbness. At that point a being might as well be mindless because they feel nothing and care about nothing. How long that takes varies from being to being.

The idea presented in the 3.5 MM that even mindless undead are "neutral evil" because of the negative energy animating them just muddies everything. It made more metaphysical sense when they were considered "neutral."

In contrast, positive energy would reinforce emotions--both positive and negative. The lumi race from MM III is an example of natives to the Positive Energy Plane who's emotions are reinforced and not for the better. They worship "light" and "truth" so zealously that they despise magical illusions and deception of any kind, even making plans to invade the Material Plane in a grand crusade.

I'm with ewancummins on what attacks constitute "pain" to the undead. The idea is reinforced by the grave strike spell that allows for sneak attacks and critical hits to affect the undead. As much as it reveals weak points in an undead being's form, it would also have to empower the attack with positive energy to work. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft introduced a special move for rogues that uses positive energy to give their sneak attacks some effect against undead to the tune of two points of additional damage per sneak attack die that would otherwise apply.

The existence of ghost touch items means that even incorporeal undead have some sort of sense of touch. Albeit lessened by both their unliving state and the effects of the Ethereal Plane on all senses. As well as the fact they can't be affected by purely mundane effects unless they're materialized. Even then their senses besides sight and hearing are supposedly pretty dull compared to the living. Although the "ghosts" of the Ghostwalk campaign setting/sourcebook are outsiders rather than undead, they're still based closely enough to draw ideas.

The "cravings" of Ghostwalk ghosts also resemble those of traditional ghosts who haunt locations or people. Or simply desire to eat or drink again or who still long for physical sensation of some kind. Since their non-sight and hearing senses are dulled, to satisfy their cravings they need stronger stimuli. Exceptionally hot or spicy foods, strongly flavored or alcoholic drinks, intense physical sensations of either pain or pleasure, that sort of thing.

As for embodied undead, their senses would logically depend on their state of preservation. Skeletons likely have no sense of touch, smell, or taste since they usually lack skin, a nose, and a tongue. Creatures in a "decaying" state would likely have a very poor sense of touch thanks to "soggy nerves" or they may well be in great pain because they feel their bodies rot (shameless Return of the Living Dead plug). Those in a "pristine" state might well feel the same sensations the living do. Vampires, for instance, have a reputation for being quite sensual in folklore.