Dread Companions..

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Troile
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Post by Troile »

Of course good characters can fall from grace but you also shouldn't go out of your way to force it on players or characters who are actively trying to avoid such a fate either lol..(
they don't have to get a familiar.

A familiar is not a vital part of the game...magic has its problems. It makes perfect sense for the dread companion to be what it is. It is a formation of Ravenloft and the character's pysche. Makes perfect sense to me.

If the character doesn't want to be evil don't get the familiar...or try to control it...either way
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Post by Troile »

I think evil is taken way too far in this case as well. Every evil character in the game is not a villian. There are a lot more to people than the 8 possible alignment archetypes. If something is evil it doesn't mean that it is sadistic or otherwise...it also doesn't mean it is 'fiend' evil. A dread companion is not a fiend by any means...it just means that the familiar isn't bound by 'morals' and 'ethics' to carry out what its master wants. Just b/c the master wouldn't approve of an action b/c it is unethical doesn't mean the familiar isn't going to do it.

I think you are taking this evil thing too black and white. How evil a familiar is depends entirely on the character.
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Post by Trevorfrost »

Troile wrote:
Of course good characters can fall from grace but you also shouldn't go out of your way to force it on players or characters who are actively trying to avoid such a fate either lol..(
they don't have to get a familiar.

A familiar is not a vital part of the game...magic has its problems. It makes perfect sense for the dread companion to be what it is. It is a formation of Ravenloft and the character's pysche. Makes perfect sense to me.

If the character doesn't want to be evil don't get the familiar...or try to control it...either way
True characters don't have to get a familiar just as the writers didn't have to write in the idea that Dread Companions are 100% guaranteed to be evil nor do DM's not have to use that system if they don't want to..

Troile wrote:I think evil is taken way too far in this case as well. Every evil character in the game is not a villian. There are a lot more to people than the 8 possible alignment archetypes. If something is evil it doesn't mean that it is sadistic or otherwise...it also doesn't mean it is 'fiend' evil. A dread companion is not a fiend by any means...it just means that the familiar isn't bound by 'morals' and 'ethics' to carry out what its master wants. Just b/c the master wouldn't approve of an action b/c it is unethical doesn't mean the familiar isn't going to do it.

I think you are taking this evil thing too black and white. How evil a familiar is depends entirely on the character.
Yeah I agree there is a lot more than 8 possible alignments... But we aren't talking real life here we are talking D&D and there are some fairly clear ideas of what's evil is and isn't in D&D... Heck with the Power's Checks table for Ravenloft we are talking an even more defined look at whats considered good and evil... Don't you think that if in real life if we could cast detect alignment and find out who the heck was Evil we would be sending them right off to some prison or exile? That in it of itself is morally questionable but if the spell was a proven accuaracy very few people would argue with it....
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

FYI, in D&D there are nine alignments…
Not 8, but 9.

I've always subscribed to the theory of:
Just because someone is evil does not make them a bad person.
Most lawyers would be classified as evil. A good lawyer never need break the law; they just do scuzzy and scummy things.
You can be evil and still polite and nice to old ladies. Many evil people might live normal lives but just not be afraid to bend the rules when no one is looking or cheat on their taxes.
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Post by Troile »

I'm not saying something isn't evil just because there are shades.

Fiend evil and Alignment evil are 2 entirely different things.

A person can fall into an evil category and still be an alright person most of the time.

And no we wouldn't be throwing everyone that is 'evil' off to jail...you have to have mens rea and actus rea...Being 'evil' wouldn't even prove the intent to do something evil...its just part of your nature.

A fiend is the supernatural embodiment of everything evil...someone who believes in trickery and underhandedness as a common way of life isn't necessarily a horribly evil person but they would still have the evil alignment...and keep in mind that they wouldn't even have the evil descriptor. Only if they are an evil cleric.
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Post by Jasper »

To go back to what Brandi and Wiccy said I think its a bit of a stretch to add a sentient will to do evil to a uninteligant animal.

At best the familar should be empathetly attached to its masters wants and needs and will try to fullfill those wants to the best of its ability but will also only take the easyest route to obtain them.
For Ex- A wizard is mugged and left for dead in a alley. His wants right then are bandages and acholol for his wounds. His ferret familar feels this and goes out into the street. He sees two options, a uncontious drunk with a bottle of strong whisky or a childrens hostpital with only a few supplies left. Naturaly the ferret would take the whiskey and a few scaps of the drunks clothes as A: its uninteligant b: It wans to fullfill its masters needs the quickest and C: it dosn't know enough about evil and mischeif to willingly want to cause hardship to the hospital.

Now I can see a ravenloft familiar taping in to the more base wants and needs (lust, greed, hatred etc:) but it still is only working off the masters dark side, not its own. It could just as easly fufill a LG paladins want of taking children out of a battle zone as it would fulfulling a wizards want of biteing a rivals finger to get at a prized ring.
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Post by Trevorfrost »

Evil isn't bad? I thought that was the whole concept of Evil... Sure an Evil person can do right things but that doesn't make them any less bad... (Which by the way is why I don't believe in a real world concept like that, no one in the real world is Evil. Immoral, Ammoral, or Crazy maybe but never Evil.)

Oh and someone who thinks Evil thoughts and never acts on those Evil impulses isn't Evil, no matter how vile your thoughts are only your actions count when it comes down to determining alignment... D&D characters don't get Evil alignments (Not counting fiends or ensorcelled creatures) for having never done anything evil. Of course duly noted its highly unlikely that someone is going to be thinking evil things all the time and not eventually do evil deeds..
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Personally, I see the "dread companion" issue as primarily a character-development device for the PC-familiar/mount relationship. Too often in D&D, this relationship is neglected or ignored, with the PC's animal being treated like a pet or, worse, a mobile magic item (i.e. tool). In a setting as character-driven as Ravenloft, I think it can acutally be a *good* thing that PCs are motivated to take more responsibility for their familiars' and mounts' lives; we DMs just need to be gracious about rewarding sincere PC efforts to discipline and teach their faithful (though evil) companions how they ought to behave.

Instead of assuming that dread companions are actively malign, I think it works better to have a new familiar/mount lack any pre-existing concept of good or evil, and choose its methods solely for their expediency. If it's placed in a position where the quickest, surest means of accomplishing a task is to murder, steal, betray, or torture, it'll do so without a second thought; when first summoned, it has no clue that such methods might be objected to by its master, let alone that they're morally wrong! Once the PC discovers its misdeeds, it's up to the master to chastise the dread companion for its behavior, and lay down the law that it mustn't do such things again. This may have to be repeated several times, as the dread companion struggles to distinguish what's acceptable from what isn't (e.g. if it kills in combat or self-defense, that's different from killing because an innocent bystander was in its way), and the PC strives to explain morality to a creature which, in fact, *can't* learn the difference between Good and Evil, and will never understand why hurting others is even an issue.

While turning a dread companion non-Evil isn't possible, I'd allow a well-disciplined familiar or mount to eventually cease ACTING Evil ... if only for the sake of its master's feelings on the subject. Mounts and familiars are intelligent and able to learn, particularly as their Int scores rise, and they do *want* to please their masters. So if a player makes the effort to role-play the companion's "education", it'll reach a stage where it grasps the limitations of its master's moral code (even if it's baffled why the PC would NEED such a pointless thing), and no longer commits the offenses it once resorted to as convenient. By this stage in a campaign, the familiar/mount will have developed an individual personality through role-playing, and no longer needs to be monitored for ethical lapses to maintain its identity as an NPC. Of course, it may still commit evil acts if faced with a dilemma it hasn't yet been taught to deal with; Ravenloft has a way of presenting unique ethical challenges, often when they're least expected. ;-)

The familiar of an Evil-aligned spellcaster, of course, would start out doing evil deeds for convenience, but would become more corrupt over time if its master endorses such behavior. Even as the dread companions of non-Evil masters become more "civilized" in their behavior, those of the villains eventually turn as willfully vicious and cruel as any darklord, as they learn to *enjoy* actions that once were merely pragmatic.
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Post by Troile »

Evil isn't bad? I thought that was the whole concept of Evil... Sure an Evil person can do right things but that doesn't make them any less bad... (Which by the way is why I don't believe in a real world concept like that, no one in the real world is Evil. Immoral, Ammoral, or Crazy maybe but never Evil.)
But then what is good? If a good character is good. Period...and evil is evil. Period. Then we're playing Faerun.

It is a simple as that.

If you are going to have everything very simple and very black and white you might as well be playing high fantasy.
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Post by Troile »

Personally, I see the "dread companion" issue as primarily a character-development device for the PC-familiar/mount relationship.

Hitting the nail on the head.
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Post by Trevorfrost »

Then we might as well not use the alignment system at all.. I am not saying that a good person can't change and a bad person can't change but its not something that just happens, it takes time..... and most importantly it takes willingness... Part of being evil generally means that you refuse to see any other way other than yours to get things done... Which is why there hasn't been a Dark Lord that has been redeemed.. Sure its possible... I find it very unlikely to happen though ....
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Post by Troile »

Not really...

It just means you have no problem with doing your way.

There are plenty of evil servants out there.

Yes darklords are evil...but so are tavern owners, guildsmen, farmers...the list goes on.

The base alignment for human is pretty much everything...that is to say its not really neutral as that is the least likely alignment for a human.

No the alignment system is good...I think you're just taking it way too rigidly.

What one person sees as a good act isn't necessarily a good act by another's view too...

there are too many things involved....

The alignment system is a tool. That is it...if it gets in the way of actual character development then maybe it isn't being used right.
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Post by Trevorfrost »

Troile wrote:
No the alignment system is good...I think you're just taking it way too rigidly.

And I don't think you are taking it rigidly enough lol.. So we can agree to disagree on this point and let it be over with lol...
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Post by Bob the Efreet »

I had a short Ravenloft game I ran recently where the two players woke up in the House of Lament with no memory. So, if they knew each other (they didn't) then they weren't aware of it. One of the players was a chaotic neutral wild mage with a weasel familiar. The wild mage (he was a little crazy) assumed the other character (actually a paladin) was a murderer, and didn't trust him at all. His weasel, being an excellent companion that was looking out for the well-being of the mage, secretly went about trying to kill the paladin. It took the paladin at least two sessions to figure out the weasel even existed. He found it very confusing when he used his detect chaos power on the sleeping mage and found two chaotic auras :lol:
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Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

Bob the Efreet wrote:I had a short Ravenloft game I ran recently where the two players woke up in the House of Lament with no memory.
Hey, kind of like the plot of Cube! People wake up in a deadly prison, with no memory, and end up killing each other.
Evil Reigns!!!!
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