[2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

[The Lesser Evil]

While I agree to a degree... I've decided already that the Angel knows what is right and what is wrong according to their moral code (LG, NG, CG). It's not a mortal to "muddle through" as best as he or she can relying on books and intuition whether they're cut off from their Gods or not.

On another note, I would like to say that Isolde is not judgemental at all IMO and she's never quick to use the sword. She allows everyone in the Carnival and doesn't care what they do with their time (chaotic) as long as they're not harmful. She lets Kargat agents in without judgement, monsters, murderers, weird vistani with creepy masks and even... the familiar.

If she was quick to the sword, Isolde would have dealt with Maloccio in a fast and decisive way.

And that's my problem.
Why doesn't Isolde deal with Maloccio in a fast and decisive way? Maloccio is a half-fiend, irredeemable and a very important cog apparently to his father's plans.

All in all, whatever I decide as good is what the angel would do. If killing orc women is good in my world (it's not BTW) an angel would do it. But killing Maloccio \ Half-fiend leaders is good in my world!
Yet, the angels in my world, (D&D world, not Ravenloft), stay in the back. They help good adventurers fight the battles, they don't fight the battles themselves or alone. They would take the form of the nice old lady that offers them a nice soup for the night, or the hermit that would find them unconscious and heal their wounds. Not the light-clad, winged, beefcake that would fight the fiends next to them.

The problem is... why, since the fiends need to be fought?
Freedom of choice? Good for the chaotics. Why for the LG ones?
Cosmic balance? The fiends in my world act way more decisively than angels. Fiends IMC are not just the evil old lady that will whisper to the King's ear to start a war. They are the 15' tall fiend that cuts people in half with the pincers. Cosmic balance would require the angels to take more active role.
Pre-arranged deal along with the Gods? If the Baatezu found a loophole, and the Tanari didn't give a crap for the deal anyway, then the LG angels would respond. Or at least the NG angels.

Regarding Isolde, isn't she already on a bigger mission/fish to fry? Malocchio is bad and all, but not nearly as bad as ol' Daddy.
Perhaps the celestials on your homeworld are otherwise occupied? If the fiends are trying to get onto earth, who's to say they're not trying to sneak their ways into the pearly gates of the heavens either?
Or maybe their warriors are already taking the fight to the fiends in the Lower Planes?
Or maybe there's a threat of mutual destruction, cold war sort of thing going on. Even (most) fiends don't want to be totally annihilated. (Unless you've already had armies of fiends entering your world,t hen this doesn't work.

[alhoon]

My curiosity comes into play when you have this “perfect” angel come into contact with the Dark Powers.

As NPCs, and outsiders, angels don't go by powers checks.

I mean it would shatter most people to realize what they were doing was wrong.

Well, IMC, Angels are not "most people", they're infallible aspects of goodness, as described by their deity whether that aligns with near-insignificant demiplanes with a couple million souls or not.
I mean, most empires in most D&D worlds are bigger than Core, clusters and islands combined and Angels have no problem breaking laws there if it aligns with their moral code.

I imagine an Angel in ravenloft would draw the interest of the Dark Powers, because something so pure in a filthy realm…. Oh the fun they might have…. xD

Well, what we know from Isolde and 3rd edition Ravenloft is:
- The Dark powers don't like them and don't want them in. Isolde had to go through weird stuff to be allowed in
- Angels are so pure they break down the plane (3rd edition) or warp it (Carnival)

Regarding Isolde, isn't she already on a bigger mission/fish to fry? Malocchio is bad and all, but not nearly as bad as ol' Daddy.

Weeeeell, she's good and chaotic, so while she would usually go for the "bigger fish to fry" she would stop and help random people (as she does with the Carnival and several carnies). Also, Maloccio isn't just an evil guy like Ivan or something, he's probably instrumental in his father's plans.
If you want to stop the GC plans, you better start by stopping Maloccio's heart.
(Which is something my PCs never actually try to do, even when they learn who he's father is and all. I had discussions with PCs after they finished an arc and said they know a half-fiend is taking power in Maloccio and more or less got something like "Terrible, what the world's coming to. Now, anyone wants to go hunt vampires?" )

Perhaps the celestials on your homeworld are otherwise occupied?

That's what I usually go by, yes. But I'm tired of that excuse.
And when the plane of water (yes, the plane of water) started a planar invasion, I had angels fly by and stop the elementals and primordials when needed.

If the fiends are trying to get onto earth, who's to say they're not trying to sneak their ways into the pearly gates of the heavens either?

They do... All the time. That's why angels patrol the Upper planes brandishing weapons. To stop fiends and their agents. There, they attack evil creatures unless they came to seek guidance. Paradises are for those that earn it, and the angels are aggressively protecting their tenants peace.
NOTE ON UPPER PLANES IN MY CAMPAIGN: You don't just get in with planeshift. Getting into an upper plane is as difficult as escaping Ravenloft (or a lower plane). If you want to see Elysium, Celestia, etc, the easiest way would be to live a good life and wait 80 years.
But there are ways into heaven (as there are gates out of hell).

Unless you've already had armies of fiends entering your world,t hen this doesn't work.

While there's no Baatezu\Tanari army marching in my world at the time, there are "armageddons" and stuff. I want the possibility open for armies from hell to start raining fire and have adventurers fight them.
But, the plane of water worked equally well. Rains of razor sharp blizzard work as well.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Weeeeell, she's good and chaotic, so while she would usually go for the "bigger fish to fry" she would stop and help random people (as she does with the Carnival and several carnies). Also, Maloccio isn't just an evil guy like Ivan or something, he's probably instrumental in his father's plans.
If you want to stop the GC plans, you better start by stopping Maloccio's heart.

That's assuming that Isolde knows what Mal is and who his father is. I don't think that's common knowledge.

[Zilfer]

Weeeeell, she's good and chaotic, so while she would usually go for the "bigger fish to fry" she would stop and help random people (as she does with the Carnival and several carnies). Also, Maloccio isn't just an evil guy like Ivan or something, he's probably instrumental in his father's plans.
If you want to stop the GC plans, you better start by stopping Maloccio's heart.

That's assuming that Isolde knows what Mal is and who his father is. I don't think that's common knowledge.

Ah.... PC knowledge compared to player knowledge.... hard to differentiate sometimes.

[alhoon]

That's assuming that Isolde knows what Mal is and who his father is. I don't think that's common knowledge.

Well, if S figured it out and Isolde didn't... that would not bode well for Isolde's investigative abilities.
But yes, that solves me a problem. IMC I'll assume Isolde doesn't know who Maloccio's father is. IIRC Maloccio doesn't have a reality wrinkle, right?
What about Elspereth though? Or the Black Duke? There are full fiends with reality wrinkles and all wandering around.

[The Lesser Evil]

Weeeeell, she's good and chaotic, so while she would usually go for the "bigger fish to fry" she would stop and help random people (as she does with the Carnival and several carnies). Also, Maloccio isn't just an evil guy like Ivan or something, he's probably instrumental in his father's plans.
If you want to stop the GC plans, you better start by stopping Maloccio's heart.
(Which is something my PCs never actually try to do, even when they learn who he's father is and all. I had discussions with PCs after they finished an arc and said they know a half-fiend is taking power in Maloccio and more or less got something like "Terrible, what the world's coming to. Now, anyone wants to go hunt vampires?" )

If Isolde is infallible, she's probably also fairly aware of her own nature. Therefore, she might understand that taking out Malocchio could involve getting bound up into Invidian politics (and indeed, politics of the whole Core). The Core is in a relatively delicate power state; killing Malocchio might any number of domino effects that erupt from the power vacuum, perhaps ones that might involve distracting Isolde from her ultimate quest. Or maybe she's gathering resources to properly destroy him and prepare for the aftermath?

As for your homeworld, is it like other D&D worlds in that it requires souls to form into celestials?
If the celestials did all the saving the day, mortal heroes would never need to go out and realize their own greatness, thus denying the heavens the chance it needs to gain fully actualized souls to replenish their armies in the first place?

(The advantage of evil is that evil mortal creatures generally can act to achieve greatness for evil purposes unprodded by things like unfulfilled social need, hence why fiends can be more active without necessarily undermining the acquisition of more powerful evil souls.)

[The Lesser Evil]

That's assuming that Isolde knows what Mal is and who his father is. I don't think that's common knowledge.

Well, if S figured it out and Isolde didn't... that would not bode well for Isolde's investigative abilities.
But yes, that solves me a problem. IMC I'll assume Isolde doesn't know who Maloccio's father is. IIRC Maloccio doesn't have a reality wrinkle, right?
What about Elspereth though? Or the Black Duke? There are full fiends with reality wrinkles and all wandering around.

Elsepeth and the Black Duke are both considerably more subtle and keep a considerably lower profile than Malocchio. They may themselves be as hard to track down as the Gentleman Caller. Again, it comes down to how much does Isolde want to be distracted from her ultimate mission?
Chaotic can mean concern over one's own personal vendetta before anything else.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, if S figured it out and Isolde didn't... that would not bode well for Isolde's investigative abilities.

I wouldn't say that. S is specifically gathering knowledge about the movers and shakers in each realms. Isolde is simply hunting one fiend. She doesn't know the GC's plans, doesn't know he's fathering children (OK, he's an incubus, she might guess that part...), and might not particularly care which cruel despot has fiendish blood or doesn't. If she wants to crusade against evil creatures, she has plenty to choose from in RL. She's so far kept her eye on the prize, as it were, and that single-minded-ness might keep her from looking too deeply into anyone who isn't the GC himself.

IIRC Maloccio doesn't have a reality wrinkle, right?

He does actually. 12000' according to Gaz IV. 165' according to VRMHCIII.

What about Elspereth though? Or the Black Duke? There are full fiends with reality wrinkles and all wandering around.

There are indeed.
I don't know if it's ever been specified what happens when RW's collide. The only instances I'm aware of where such a thing would have happened are when the fiends of Chateaufaux were hanging out together (two demons, their wrinkles probably either intensified or just overlapped) and when the GC enters Carnival in the adventure sketch at the end of the Carnival book. There was no mention of the effect of the two wrinkles there that I can see, but then, it was a very brief sketch of an adventure. One might assume they cancel out, or they just overlap, being two different, orthogonal effects on the fabric of the demiplane.

So it's not clear that Isolde could detect wrinkles of any fiend. her own might mask them.

Even so, it would be interesting to see what happened if she chanced on a fiend that wasn't her prey. Carnival's writeup does say that she does what she can to fight evil-doers, but also that she picks her battles carefully, and that the GC remains her main quarry. After all, he's the whole reason she came to RL, and it was a personal vendetta as much as a holy quest. (I suspect the idea of an angel on a personal vendetta doesn't gibe much with your view of angels, though, alhoon, but officially, that's why she pursued him into RL.) Seems to me that she'd try to take down another fiend if she could, safely, but otherwise leave them be, as she does with vampires, werewolves, and all the other bad stuff in this cursed land. While that could be seen as cowardice, it's also pragmatic. If she doesn't stop the GC, no one will. If she lets herself be cut down by some other evil above her pay-grade, he goes free, and she can't allow that.

[alhoon]

(I suspect the idea of an angel on a personal vendetta doesn't gibe much with your view of angels, though, alhoon, but officially, that's why she pursued him into RL.) Seems to me that she'd try to take down another fiend if she could, safely, but otherwise leave them be, as she does with vampires, werewolves, and all the other bad stuff in this cursed land. While that could be seen as cowardice, it's also pragmatic. If she doesn't stop the GC, no one will. If she lets herself be cut down by some other evil above her pay-grade, he goes free, and she can't allow that.

I don't mind the personal vendetta thing. Angels are not humans. It may be a personal vendetta for all we know because her deity gathered 211 angels and tasked each to kill a specific fiend within 101 years or something. So, her main focus is the GC with "I help where I can, but I keep my eyes on the prize" because that's her orders and as a perfect creature, she doesn't have any willingness to defy or even question, her deity's wishes.

[Resonant Curse]

Also, Isolde is specifically trying to track down one fiend, and he's always warned of her coming, so if she doesn't keep moving, she'll possibly lose him altogether. If she stopped to try and deal with every villain, monster, or fiend in RL she'd get bogged down and never catch him. There's always time to deal with the rest later, since as far as I know she has no way out of Ravenloft after she succeeds.

[alhoon]

I don't think she's made many rituals to lessen her reality wrinkle.

Now, on Mallocio's reality wrinkle... that seems wrong to me somehow. He was conceived of a fiend and a darklord, which are more than tied to the land; they are the core, the beating heart of the land. If anything's a native outsider that would be Maloccio. I don't think he should have a RW

[The Lesser Evil]

Mallochio isn't a darklord; Gabby still is. The only reason he's stuck in Invidia is due to a Vistani curse they put on him.

Fiends aren't tied to the land unless they do enough power rituals. Indeed, like the celestial, their presence disrupts the planar fabric of the land, hence the reality wrinkle.

Edit: As for the native outsider thing, you're right about that. Native outsiders don't usually have the Evil subtype, a given requirement to have a reality wrinkle. However, Mallochio may be exceptional given his nature as a son of a powerful fiend spoken of in prophecy. He's not merely a half-fiend, but he also has the Sight and the Vistani blood in him, making him a special case.

[alhoon]

Mallochio isn't a darklord; Gabby still is. The only reason he's stuck in Invidia is due to a Vistani curse they put on him.

I know, I say he's the son of a darklord, hence son of someone tied to the land like nobody else.

Edit: As for the native outsider thing, you're right about that. Native outsiders don't usually have the Evil subtype, a given requirement to have a reality wrinkle. However, Mallochio may be exceptional given his nature as a son of a powerful fiend spoken of in prophecy. He's not merely a half-fiend, but he also has the Sight and the Vistani blood in him, making him a special case.

I think native outsiders don't have a RW, period, whether they have the [evil] subtype or not. I may be wrong though and only outsiders with the [mists] descriptor do not have RW. In any case, Saying that Maloccio is foreign seems somehow off, especially since he also has Vistani blood as you said. I don't think you can get more in-tune with Ravenloft than having darklord blood and vistani blood.

[Zilfer]

Mallochio isn't a darklord; Gabby still is. The only reason he's stuck in Invidia is due to a Vistani curse they put on him.

I know, I say he's the son of a darklord, hence son of someone tied to the land like nobody else.

Edit: As for the native outsider thing, you're right about that. Native outsiders don't usually have the Evil subtype, a given requirement to have a reality wrinkle. However, Mallochio may be exceptional given his nature as a son of a powerful fiend spoken of in prophecy. He's not merely a half-fiend, but he also has the Sight and the Vistani blood in him, making him a special case.

I think native outsiders don't have a RW, period, whether they have the [evil] subtype or not. I may be wrong though and only outsiders with the [mists] descriptor do not have RW. In any case, Saying that Maloccio is foreign seems somehow off, especially since he also has Vistani blood as you said. I don't think you can get more in-tune with Ravenloft than having darklord blood and vistani blood.

Isn't it arguable that there is anything "native" in ravenloft at all? I mean it's mostly just copy and pasted lands hastily put together....

[alhoon]

Isn't it arguable that there is anything "native" in ravenloft at all? I mean it's mostly just copy and pasted lands hastily put together....

Meh... True.
But still since there are "native" (as in copy pasted) fiends without reality wrinkle...