Heroes of the Mist: 4e Ravenloft Project

[The Pickled Punk]

It's not a great fit for canon, but acceptable.

IMO its the closest that a 4E version of Isolde can come to fitting into the older canon. The game mechanics and default assumptions of 4E are not the ones used in earlier editions. The goal shouldn't be "This has to be identical to what came before", it should be "How can we make this fit into the spirit of what came before?"

Maybe. But there's the choice between changing the world for the mechanics or changing the mechanics to fit the world.

Having Isolde become a high level deva keeps the 4e lore, as would having her be an eladrin from the Feywild.
The other option is retaining Isolde as an angel and having her appearance change, giving her a shapeshifting power.

A good update of a campaign setting is a compromise. Changing what works best changed (especially when the original flavour was a reflection or compromise for old rules) but trying to keep the original story when possible.

How about this: Isolde is not a Deva; she is still an Angel, though she physically resembles a Human (and has lost any ability to fly as a result). When she requested permission to hunt down the Gentleman Caller from her patron Deity, she was told that she would only be allowed to go to the Natural World if she became a Deva, embracing the never ending cycle of reincarnation. That was unacceptable to her, so during the Grand Conjunction Isolde flew into the Shadowfell and forced herself into one of the collapsing Domains of Dread, where she sensed the Gentleman Caller's power.

At that moment the Grand Conjunction collapsed, she found herself in the physical body of a human woman, naked, but for her divine greatsword. Accosted by brigands, she handily dispatched them, dressed in the clothes and armor of one of them, and then heard cries for help. The rest, as we know is history. Isolde discovered she retained much of her Angelic power, but that she also had a reality wrinkle causing the Twisting.

Devas on the other hand, despite their Immortal origins, would not have reality wrinkles. Perhaps it is because of the cycle of reincarnation they have devoted themselves to, perhaps it is due the length of time since they left the Astral Sea to wander the Natural World, or perhaps it is because the Dark Powers consider them beneath their notice (unlike Isolde who entered the Domains of Dread in violation of the Unspoken Pact).

This way we can eat our cake and still have it: Devas get to be a PC race, while Isolde remains a unique character, with powers far beyond those of a Deva (but not quite the same as those of the Angels in the Monster Manuals).

[Mortavius]

I'm all in favor of this approach. I like that Isolde is still a wholly unique being in the domains.

And I think the approach for Devas is a good one too. Personally I love the Deva race in 4E (way better than Aasimar IMO), and while I wouldn't necessarily want a native one, if a PC wanted to play an Outlander Deva, I'd have no problem with it. Really, they'd just have to get make-up and cover their skin markings and wear some tinted glasses and they could pass for humans. Anyways, making them not have wrinkles allows them to be PCs on par with the other races allowed to players.

[Hell_Born]

Wow, this topic really went on the walkabout. I kind of thought I said at the start that this was a simple thought exercise: if the Gazetteers had been written under 4th edition instead of 3.5, what might the "Barovian/Forlorn/Falkovnian/Etc Hero" sidebars have looked like? That's what I was aiming at finding peoples' opinions on.

For example, races have changed, classes have changed - I don't think 4e Lamordia would be so negative towards rangers anymore because they only looked down on them in 3.5 for their nature as divine casters (the exact line about Rangers from the sidebar is "The talents of rangers are admired, but those who espouse their woodland spiritualism are mistrusted"), meaning that a 4e version of the Gazette wouldn't paint them in the same light - etcetera.

Not that I mind the derailing over much but... yeah, this isn't exactly what I signed on for when I started this.

[Mortavius]

Yeah...things did get a little derailed from the original topic...that's the thing about messageboards though. Conversations go into all kinds of directions. Check out some of the long discussions to see where they started, and where they go throughout the pages.

I think everyone did sort of give their opinion though of what they thought so far before we started talking about Isolde though. Since there wasn't really anything more said about that, we sort of went off on our own tangent.

[The Pickled Punk]

Wow, this topic really went on the walkabout.

(SNIP)

For example, races have changed, classes have changed...

(SNIP)

Not that I mind the derailing over much but... yeah, this isn't exactly what I signed on for when I started this.

Sorry about the tangents with Isolde, but at least Mortavius and I could come up with a decent way to keep her uniqueness in 4E. The thing is that the races and classes have changed, and there are many new races and classes that would need to be sorted out before decided who belongs where. After all, the Gazetteer entries were working off of the general modifications and interpretations from the 3.0 Ravenloft Campaign Setting!

IMO reaching a consensus on which races are native to the Domains of Dread is the first step in working on a "Heroes of the Mists" project for 4E. Most of the 4E Classes can be worked into existing canon with little difficulty, but the Primal classes might provide some issues.

For example, what are Shamans supposed to be? Are they primitive tribal leaders or witch doctors, from Domains like the Nightmare Lands (among the Abber Nomads) or Vorostokov? Are they local wise women from Valachan? Are they the 4E version of Witches and Warlocks of Hala?

What about Druids? There are three different types of Druid, the shape changing Druids from PHB2, the melee-oriented healers from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and the summoners from Heroes of the Feywild. Which ones should be used for the Forfarian Druids?

[The Pickled Punk]

I've been giving some thought to how to work the Primal Power source into the setting and I think I've hit on some nice ideas. Mortavius, Hell_Born, I'm assuming you're both familar enough with the backstory from PHB2 and Primal Power that I don't need to elaborate too much. According to PHB2, the Primal Spirits banded together out of self-preservation. Primal Power shows that the Primal Spirits are not one big happy family, and that after the Dawn War ended they often went their separate ways. Their ranks expanded with ancestral spirits, animal totems and other spirits, but this was not a conscious effort on the part of a collective group. Unlike the gods or the Devils, who work mostly as a group, or the Primordials and Demons, who work together only duress, the Primal spirits work together on an ad hoc basis in the default setting.

This could be translated into several pre-existing concepts in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting. The Loa have been described as much less powerful than gods except when working in unison. Having the Loa, including Baron Samedi, be primal spirits would definitely work. Chicken Bone works better as a shaman than a wizard or cleric, with the bones he collects each corresponding to a different primal aspect.

The Abber Nomads' philosophy of not trusting what they see, and believing that the world is ever changing is mostly due to the influence of the Nightmare Court, but it could also be due to the presence of malevolent primal spirits. Perhaps the Dream creatures the Nightmare Man controls are primal entities, related to the minds and souls of dreamers. Perhaps the battle between the gods Primal spirits against the Primordials took place not only in the physical parts of the natural world but in a dimension of the mind. Or maybe, where ever the Abber Nomads (and Mullonga) came from, the Primal Spirits of their homeworld were drawn into the Nightmare Lands and corrupted.

Gregor Zolnik is another example of how to use the new material and the old. Zolnik might have called upon the spirit of the Primal Beast, which gives some Druids their Wildshape power, but due to his wicked nature he bonded with the pelt of the wolf and the Primal Beast, becoming more than man, wolf or spirit. He could be a cautionary tale for Barbarian, Druid and Warden PCs, how they might be consumed by the Primal Beast.

In general the Primal Spirits should not be treated as cute and fluffy nature friends. Nor should they all be malevolent and evil. Most of them just want to be left alone. If approached with reverence and gifts of blood or valor (depending on the spirit) they are open to giving boons to mortals (in the form of class powers and features, such as the Shaman's Call Spirit Companion or the Barbarian's Rage). Some spirits, such as the Loa or ancestor spirits in Dwarven communities are far more benevolent, but they do demand respect from those who would seek their power.

Another source of Primal power is the Fey, especially the Shadow Fey. Muryan might teach a Berserker their dances, a Teg might show a Sentinel Druid how to tame a bear or wolf, and a Shee might teach a Shaman to bind a Spirit Companion. But these gifts most likely come at a price, especially from members of the Unseelie Court. Just as Fey Pact Warlocks and Hexblades might find themselves forced to plant 1,001 rosebuds for an Alven or help a Powrie commit a murder, a Shaman or Berserker might be forced to assist Loht in one of his schemes or aid Maeve in thwarting her brother.

So what do you guys think?

[Mortavius]

I like this approach for the Primal classes. I would probably handle them as I do the fey; there are some evil ones (Baron Samedi jumps to mind), but even the neutral ones are capricious and uncaring for the most part.

I can see any character who taps the Primal power source as sort of flirting with these creatures, more indirectly than a Warlock. I agree that Gregor Zolnik could be a great example of this. I believe there is a Barbarian with a paragon path (Bear Warrior, I think) that could be adapted to him wolf-wise.

In either case, I would make the primal spirits in Ravenloft rare. It's not a true world, so I think that any spirit there would have either spontaneous creation, or perhaps migrated there.

Also, how would a Primal Spirit interact with a Darklord? Some Darklords have a stronger connection and control of the land than others...whose control supercedes whom? I'm inclined to think a Darklord has control...and what does a Primal Spirit think of that? Perhaps it knows it SHOULD have such control...and doesn't? I expect that would make such a Spirit very angry and resentful...

Add to that...I can think that Primal Spirits would be very affected by the particular domain they reside in...and that could transfer to the Primal classes. For example, I can imagine that a Druid in the Nightmare Lands could be a Summoner or Shape-Changer, but perhaps there are no Healer Druids present, because of the nature of the land?

[The Pickled Punk]

Anton Misroi and Gregor Zolnik are probably the two Darklords most closely tied to Primal spirits.

Misroi is probably not a Shaman, but his knowledge of the Dance of the Dead could allow him NPC Controller and Artillery effects similar to Shaman powers. He might also have access to rituals that use the Nature skill as well as necromantic rituals. Wasn't Misroi's connection to the Loa and Baron Samedi explored in one of the Ravenloft novels?

Gregor wouldn't need to use Barbarian rages, he could just turn into huge wolf by putting on his wolfskin, but he might be able to heal himself, cause madness in others, summon wolf spirits, and spread lycanthropy. He would be drawing power from the Primal Beast, and so long as he dedicates part of his kills to the Primal Beast it stays happy.

Mullonga, of the Nightmare Court, might be able to send dream spirits to do her bidding, use complicated Primal rituals and draw Primal spirits into the Nightmare Lands. In this specific case, I feel Mullonga's power should exceed the Primal Spirits she traps for power. She probably can't get one of the major spirits like the World Serpent or the Great Bear, but she doesn't care; there are plenty of weaker Spirits for her to snatch up.

Outside of Souragne, the Nightmare Lands, Valachan, Verbrek and Rokushima Taiyoo, access to Primal spirits should be limited to Ancestral Spirits, Spirits trapped in a Domain when it was formed (and who may have been corrupted) and the greatest of Spirits, those that transcend worlds. For example, the Primal Beast, which Wildshaper Druids tap into, exists in all animals. All a Druid would need to do is carve a totem and participate in a ceremony and she would be able to learn to Wildshape. However the secrets of tapping into the world-spanning Primal Beast are lost in all but a few Domains, so a Druid player character from Dementlieu or Mordent would need a more elaborate backstory than a Druid PC from Valachan.

I think that the Primal Spirits who reside in the Domains of Dread should be treated as dangerous entities. Most are not openly malevolent, but they are not to be trifled with. Another idea could be that spirits are stronger in some Domains than in others. The Primal Beast, for example, would be very strong and violent in Verbrek, Vechor and Vorostokov, but weaker or more placid in Lamordia, Mordent or Dementlieu. The Loa are strongest in Souragne, but almost non-existent in other Domains.

This does not mean that a Shaman or Druid should lose their powers or Class features, but there is a sense of distance that a Souragnian Shaman will feel when leaving his Domain. But if he ever returns to Souragne, he will immediately feel the presence of the Loa and may need to placate them due to his absence.

[Nathan of the FoS]

King Crocodile! You could do a lot with Primal stuff in the Wildlands. In fact, you'd have to.

One of my favorite character ideas I came up with for 4e was a beastmaster ranger gnoll from the Wildlands. The character was actually two hyenas and a primal spirit who have been sent to accomplish some mission in the human lands, for whatever reason; the primal spirit would occupy one or the other of them, and whichever one it was currently occupying would be the "gnoll" and the other would be the "animal companion". And every so often the spirit would switch hosts...so when the PCs first met the gnoll and animal companion, the gnoll would introduce himself as Fisi and the animal companion as Njaa, but a couple of weeks later the spirit would switch hosts and Fisi would now say the animal companion's name was Kucheka, because the spirit's name is Fisi and the two hyenas are Njaa and Kucheka. I think it could be really cool if you did it right. It would also satisfy my itch for shoehorning apparently inappropriate races/monsters into Ravenloft by choosing the right backstory.