Tome of Magic Shadowcaster and Illusion(Shadow) rules?

[YamatoIouko]

So, I have a player wanting to run a Shadowcaster in Ravenloft. Seems fine, we've worked out a general reasoning behind it. My question (and his) is this: should his mysteries (and by extension, a future Shadowdancer who will have Shadow Evocation and such) with a duration of instantaneous be subject to will saves to break free? The wording in the version I have is unclear.

Is there a specific rule on instantaneous? Is it on me if not? If it IS on me, which way do any of you think I should lean? I'm at about dead middle and need advice.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I don't have the shadowcaster rules handy, but I'd rule that if it's duplicating a spell with the shadow descriptor, (like the shadowdancer's shadow evocation) then yes, it requires the will save to avoid a shadow breaking free. But note that IIRC, that only applies to spells that aren't dismissed. A shadow magic specialist raised in Ravenloft would probably learn not to let his spells expire on their own, but dismiss them before the end whenever possible.

I'm not sure what you mean about instantaneous. That usually is used to describe a duration, not a target.

[alhoon]

Yes but since most of his spells are shadowy, it's a good hit to the class. So I would say only in those cases that it matters gamewise, not when the class does thematic shadowy staff.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Nice to see someone trying to sort that out. The changes to Shadow descriptor spells and abilities turned into a Gordian knot for me trying to figure out all the math involved. Even the binder (which is the basis for two Harmonixer classes from the Shadow Hearts trilogy) was a headache. Don't ask for the rules on them just yet, I haven't taken the time to put them down on paper or computer text yet. It's all up here. ::knocks on head, hollow echoes follow::

[HuManBing]

This brings up the entertaining possibility of Azalin employing a Shadowcaster to just cast random spells. Each time the spell creates a self-willed shadow, Azalin has a new undead servant.

[High Priest Mikhal]

This brings up the entertaining possibility of Azalin employing a Shadowcaster to just cast random spells. Each time the spell creates a self-willed shadow, Azalin has a new undead servant.

Now that would be cheating (wait, Azalin's a darklord, nevermind). And no, Azalin can't just create shadows from whole cloth; he can raise up the dead as skeletons and zombies, and control undead already extant in Darkon. Anything more sophisticated still requires him to go through the motions of using create (greater) undead.

[HuManBing]

This brings up the entertaining possibility of Azalin employing a Shadowcaster to just cast random spells. Each time the spell creates a self-willed shadow, Azalin has a new undead servant.

Azalin can't just create shadows from whole cloth; he can raise up the dead as skeletons and zombies, and control undead already extant in Darkon. Anything more sophisticated still requires him to go through the motions of using create (greater) undead.

You have a correct understanding of the Gaz2 and Azalin's undead creation powers, but I think you may have misunderstood the mechanics of shadow undead creation. Simply put, shadow undead creation is completely unrelated to Azalin or his powers. It's an innate function of the Demiplane itself.

Azalin can only CREATE skeletons and zombies. But he can SEIZE CONTROL of all undead in Darkon, with no save. (See GazII.) Any shadow in Darkon can be instantly controlled by Azalin. This same mechanic forms Toben the Many's immense fear of Azalin - he knows that if his puppet undead hosts end up in Darkon, Azalin can seize control of him immediately.

However, here he is not creating shadows. The Demiplane is doing that for him, by subverting the shadowcaster's spells. (See the chapters on altered magic in the core Ravenloft rulebooks.)

Azalin is merely letting the Demiplane's physics convert shadow magic into real shadows, and then using his canonical powers to control them.

Perhaps you have misunderstood the mechanics under discussion. There is no "cheating" here at all. Everything here is entirely within valid canon rules, your Honor!

[High Priest Mikhal]

You have a correct understanding of the Gaz2 and Azalin's undead creation powers, but I think you may have misunderstood the mechanics of shadow undead creation. Simply put, shadow undead creation is completely unrelated to Azalin or his powers. It's an innate function of the Demiplane itself.

Actually I fully understand. What I said was Azalin himself can't raise up shadows just using Undead Mastery or his powers as a darklord. Seizing control of a shadow created by spells with the Shadow descriptor, yes. That's no problem.

And when I said "that's cheating," I was being facetious.

[alhoon]

Well, I doupt Azalin really needs someone to bring about shadows. OK, he can do it. But he can also grab a spectre and have it mass murder Falkovian people brought in, to make an army of spectres, like the one his has in his stairs.
100 spectres. Who the heck has 100 specters?!?

[HuManBing]

Actually I fully understand. What I said was Azalin himself can't raise up shadows just using Undead Mastery or his powers as a darklord. Seizing control of a shadow created by spells with the Shadow descriptor, yes. That's no problem.

Correct, we are in agreement here.

The inspiration for this came when I was doing Azalin's spell tactics analysis a few years back. I realized that he has Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, which both allow him to mimic spells he doesn't actually know. But both come with the quirky effect of a chance to create a free-willed shadow undead. I realized that a literal reading of the rules means Azalin could use those spells to get around his "no new spells" limitation (within those two schools only) with a chance of creating a handy new undead servant. This struck me as rather nifty, as well as faintly absurd.

Well, I doupt Azalin really needs someone to bring about shadows. OK, he can do it. But he can also grab a spectre and have it mass murder Falkovian people brought in, to make an army of spectres, like the one his has in his stairs.
100 spectres. Who the heck has 100 specters?!?

Yeah, Azalin is pretty much a "whatever GM wants him to have, he just has" sort of NPC. (The rulebook even suggests the GM can arbitrarily raise or lower the limit of the spells he knows by redefining the parameters of his curse.) Regarding the specters, he actually only has five in his stairwell. He does have 40 wraiths there though!

[High Priest Mikhal]

Well, I doupt Azalin really needs someone to bring about shadows. OK, he can do it. But he can also grab a spectre and have it mass murder Falkovian people brought in, to make an army of spectres, like the one his has in his stairs.
100 spectres. Who the heck has 100 specters?!?

Yeah, Azalin is pretty much a "whatever GM wants him to have, he just has" sort of NPC. (The rulebook even suggests the GM can arbitrarily raise or lower the limit of the spells he knows by redefining the parameters of his curse.) Regarding the specters, he actually only has five in his stairwell. He does have 40 wraiths there though!

And how many skeletons are in his closet?

[HuManBing]

And how many skeletons are in his closet?

Rooms 73-76 in From the Shadows detail Azalin's personal chambers in Castle Avernus. They included a dining room, study, bedroom, and bath - although it's stated that Azalin rarely visits them any more, as he has few needs for creature comforts. None of the rooms are specifically labelled as a closet.

However, the map's general scale is at 10x10 rooms, so a closet would likely be that size for cartographical purposes. Each level is 15 feet above the lower one, but it's safe to assume 5 feet of that is for support and floorbeams. So a 10x10x10 closet would have 1000 cubic feet.

The average human skeleton probably has enough bones to fill one cubic foot, if you assumed the remains were completely calcified with little to no organic material left. This assumes they're neatly packed, but not compressed. (Powdered bones don't work well for skeletons.) So in any given closet, the median estimate would be 1,000 skeletons. You could adjust this upwards if demihumans, animals, or children were also incorporated. Or downwards if you have giants, larger monsters, Scandinavian jarls, etc.

[alhoon]

Nah, 1 cubic foot is next to impossible for skeletons. The skull alone is nearly 1 cubic foot. It would mean re-arraynging every one of their bones, including putting fingerbones and ribs in skull etc. I would say at least 3 cubic feet/skeleton, and said skeleton would need 1d3 rounds to "unpack" itself by taking his legs and then his arms out of his ribcage etc.

So, a closet would have 300 tightly packed skeletons, reaching to the roof. Once you open the door, 2d4 x 10 skeletons fall out of the tightly packed mess and start unpacking as do the ones near the doorway. I would say it would take like 20 rounds+ for all of them to unpack themselves and move/fall out.

Also: Since that's about Ravenloft rules and Azalin's closet shouldn't it be moved to the general forum?

[HuManBing]

Also: Since that's about Ravenloft rules and Azalin's closet shouldn't it be moved to the general forum?

Given the extreme tongue-in-cheek nature of this entire discussion I think The Dark Beyond might be a better fit.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Also: Since that's about Ravenloft rules and Azalin's closet shouldn't it be moved to the general forum?

Actually, the initial question probably belonged there too, so I'm moving the whole thread.