Do zombies jump badly?

[cure]

Zombies can't run in tactical movement since they can't take a full action. A jump is part of movement which is to say part of a move action. A running long jump requires 20 ft of movement. Should the base movement rate of the jumper be less than 30 ft. the jump is penalised. So far, so good for zombies. But an individual with the run feat gets a bonus to jumping. That implies that being able to go 5x base speed vs. 4x base speed over 20 ft matters. And consequently one's ability to do 4 x base speed vs. a zombie's 1 x base speed over 20 ft should matter, but apparently doesn't.

Even if one chooses to igore the paradox with zombies, then consider this:

An individual with a base speed of 30 ft tumbles at half speed a distance of 20 ft as part of a double move action and then jumps. By the rules the distance that he jumps is not impacted by the fact that he is moving at 15ft. Correct? Or am I misreading the rules?

[Lovecraftforever]

Why would you need jumping zombies? Traditionally in D&D and cinema they can barely walk let alone leap.

[cure]

Why would you need jumping zombies? Traditionally in D&D and cinema they can barely walk let alone leap.

Reverse that. Why do we have zombies that according to the rules as written can jump better than dwarves whereas the tradition might suggest otherwise?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

See house of the dead and other videogames for jumping zombies. that said, I'd expect the standard ones to be pretty poor at it, with some special breeds having the jumping prowess. The rules probably don't support it as written, though.

[Lovecraftforever]

Most attribute 28 Days Later as the first fast moving zombies. Incorrect.

Others attribute the first fast zombies to Return Of The Living Dead. Also incorrect.

The classic weird tale Herbert West Reanimator had the first fast moving AND leaping zombies.

Also the first cannibalistic zombies.

(Cue the "THE MORE YOU KNOW" star thingy)

[Manofevil]

Yes, the next Wesley Snipes movie will be... 'Dead White Men Can't Jump.' with Snipes as Blade.

[Sareau]

I know Chinese legends about Leaping Vampires claims the creatures tended to hop and leap rather than walk-Chinese theories on rigor mortis and such-but the point regarding zombies is well-taken.

And while I must offer kudos to the person crediting the modern zombie to H.P.Lovecraft, I must also hearken back to George Romero's Night of the Living Dead to remind you all that cinematic zombies are actually ghouls. Romero refers to them as such, but everyone else claims they are zombies.

As far as zombies jumping, however, I would have to say their handler would be the one making that decision-the average zombie isn't intelligent enough to jump without an order.

[Jester of the FoS]

Why would you need jumping zombies? Traditionally in D&D and cinema they can barely walk let alone leap.

Reverse that. Why do we have zombies that according to the rules as written can jump better than dwarves whereas the tradition might suggest otherwise?

And halflings. -6 penalty for slow speed and +2 racial for a net -4 penalty.

However, distance moved jumping counts against your normal movement, so the most a zombie can every jump is 10'. They're also mindless and thus gain no skill points, so anyone trained in jump can out-jump them.

There's nothing mechanically in D&D that prevents zombies from jumping, but you can rule they're not smart enough to do so. Just like there's nothing mechanically preventing zombies from using the Craft skill untrained.

[Lovecraftforever]

I know Chinese legends about Leaping Vampires claims the creatures tended to hop and leap rather than walk-Chinese theories on rigor mortis and such-but the point regarding zombies is well-taken.

And while I must offer kudos to the person crediting the modern zombie to H.P.Lovecraft, I must also hearken back to George Romero's Night of the Living Dead to remind you all that cinematic zombies are actually ghouls. Romero refers to them as such, but everyone else claims they are zombies.

As far as zombies jumping, however, I would have to say their handler would be the one making that decision-the average zombie isn't intelligent enough to jump without an order.

Personally I preferred in NOTLD when they referred to them as "the creeps".

And Romero dropped "the z bomb" in Land Of The Dead.

[High Priest Mikhal]

And Romero dropped "the z bomb" in Land Of The Dead.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

Okay, getting serious, Romero-zombies weren't actually called zombies until LotD. In previous movies they were called "creeps" as LCF said, but also ghouls. Society dubbed them "zombies," not Romero. To him, zombie was a word associated with Vodoun and the zombies of bocors created by a special potion (zombis).

In EtCR there's a quality called "swift" or something like that that allows a zombie to run, and possibly jump, but not attack in the same action unless it's a charging attack. Also the base zombie template assumes the corpses are in advanced decomposition, or at least rigor mortis. Before rigor mortis sets in (generally 24 hours after death) a zombie could run and jump easily, while after RM wears off (generally two to three days after death) the zombie could also run and jump until the muscles and ligaments start to turn to mush. Enterprising necromancers could store a body on ice or use gentle repose to preserve a corpse long enough to make such creatures. Fast and/or leaping zombie can throw the players' for a loop and shake them out of complacency, which is really the whole point IMO.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

In the terms of the modern zombie genre, the first running zombie is also the first one that appears in the original Night of the Living Dead, but I put that down more to the momentum of the car it was clinging onto when it started moving and that it was moving downhill at the time (it's stumbling along pretty badly, heh). Also in NotLD the zombies were mostly referred to as Ghouls, Creeps was less used (I happened to watch this movie again earlier today, I've been doing alot of zombie research for a up-coming project with a company).

Fast and Jumoing Zombies were also encountered in City of the Dead, the most prominent being a zombie that leaps from a fire escape some 20 feet up and lands perfectly normal, then it just gropes lazily at its intended target, not a great follow up if you ask me.

A running zombie can be seen in version 4 of the (original) Dawn of the Dead Uncut (there are now 7 versions of this Uncut version now, all with different footage added and taken out... Anyway, the running zombie can be seen when one of the characters is parking his truck to block one of the entrances to the mall. It's not easy to spot, but it's there on the left of the screen in the middle distance.

Onto the topic or jumping zombies in D&D though. Zombies would have the ability to run and/or jump for a short time after reanimation if they reanimate on death. Prior to rigormortis it is possible, and after also, but not for long. After a few days in humid (a fortnight on the outside in temperate) climate, as the tissue would be necrotising to swiftly to allow any further form of fast or agile movement. A zombie could, say, stumble off a ledge and maydbe it's own weight from tipping would carry it forward a little, but not very far. Such a mannuever would also cause severe damage to a body which is already rotting and in far from peak condition.

And finally, the Infected in 28 Days/Week are not zombies, they do not fit any definition of what a zombie is. Not even the creators of the movies refer to them or regard them as zombies

Shameless plug - watch The Walking Dead on AMC this October, it's gonna be good

[Pale]

Wiccy, I'm kind of curious about some of your ideas - at least as they relate to the magically reanimated, rather than the Romero-style "mystery disease from beyond the stars" (was from a meteorite, right?).

And, you're right - the "creatures" in 28d/wks were humans who had been infected with something that radically amped up their aggression. Or I think that's what it was. Unthinking, uncomprehending rage.

At any rate, to your points - you're suggesting that a zombie wouldn't have the meaty integrity necessary to perform too many physical feats. I think that makes sense, especially in Romero's worlds. As the body decays, it loses functionality - "duh". But in Ravenloft, and in DnD in general, zombies are created through magic - and so is a skeleton. Both are typically low-level undead, but one is still juicy, to borrow from "The Mummy".

Do you think that the magic keeping them animated (them being both zombie and skeletons - ie, minion undead) is also going to affect the body - keep it "limber", so to speak?

Personally, I'd say their ability is more a reflection on who created them or how. Infection+death (ie, no preservation) gives you shamblers, infection+affect(rage) gives you the sprinters, and reanimation gives you automatons.

[Sareau]

In Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things, the dead are brought up by some means-numerous spells and chants are used, as well as desecrating a corpse and a few more unsavories. These dead were, for all they'd been buried decades, fairly fast for shamblers, though this is what they behaved as without the presence of a Happy Meal (i.e. any of the living cast).

As far as 28 Days goes, it's zombies-the creators of the film didn't call them that but Branough refused to let anyone on the set of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein use the word monster, either. 28 Days was a lot like Night of the Comet-the zombies were incidental to the plot-it was humanity's reaction to the situation that had all the horrific stuff. Most people accept that voodoo, dark sorcery, or infection/radiation from whatever sources still produces an anthropophagous zombie, no matter what some filmaker says about "his" film-once it's out there, it's ours as much as theirs.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Personally, I'd say their ability is more a reflection on who created them or how. Infection+death (ie, no preservation) gives you shamblers, infection+affect(rage) gives you the sprinters, and reanimation gives you automatons.

Kind of sounds like the variant uses for animate dead as presented in Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead using some of the non-spell based reanimation ideas. Plus correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a "zombie virus" in Ravenloft 2e? Or am I adding a supernatural virus that didn't exist? (And if it didn't, why didn't it?) Here are some ideas I've been sitting on.

For argument's sake, let's say there is such a virus. Only instead of just a "plain zombie," it turns its victims into a particular type depending on the circumstances. A barbarian in the throes of a Rage when infected might create a "raging" zombie, or a person who simply catches it and dies turns into a shambler (albeit uncontrolled). Or the vector of infection could play a role. Someone who eats meat (humanoid or not) infected by the zombie virus could turn into a cannibal zombie, or who drinks tainted water could turn into the water zombie in VRGttWD. Maybe if they die in a fire while infected they turn into the "fiery zombie" in said guide, or if drowned in salt water turn into a sea zombie. Or maybe if they're buried in muddy ground, come back as mud zombies.

Spells added to the standard animate dead ritual could accomplish much the same thing, as could incorporating corpses that died under specific circumstances--or both, just to keep things from getting out of hand (you know how necromancers can be). Adding cat's grace could create a fast zombie, like the ones in Libris Mortis, or casting a spell that causes hunger could create a cannibal zombie from the body of a person who starved to death. More potent variants like a "fiendish zombie" could require the corpse of an actual fiend (good luck with that, especially in Ravenloft!), or a more powerful spell like create (greater) undead coupled with another equally potent spell like (greater) visage of the diety (evil version).

I'd go into "deathless" zombies, but that's both for another thread and contrary to the idea of deathless voluntarily becoming what they are in order to accomplish one last task (though there is nothing that says a little research and some unique or variant spells couldn't do it). If it keeps players on their toes...well, why not? Don't feel tied down by the RAW.

[HuManBing]

Zombies might not be able to jump, but they seem to have extremely strong grappling strength. They might be able to clamber over or across obstacles that would give normal humans trouble, simply through brute tenacity.