Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The only other mention of a dragon in RL that i know of is from the TSR trading card for Hoelgar Arnuttson. Hoelgar got canonized in Gaz 2 (though with a typo: he became a Brd instead of a Brb), so the Golden Eyed Youth is at least semi-canon.

We didn't. link looks fine to me... try again.

(And I don't intend to crop it again if I can help it. Server space is cheap nowadays...)

I get : "The topic or post you requested does not exist"

Hmm... try it like this?

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... hp?p=38062

[The Giamarga]

Same with that link. Doesn't work for me.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

truly bizarre.... I'll look into it over the weekend...

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Here's a thought: what if the error was in the original? I might like him better as a bard....

He's described more thoroughly in Bleak House and elsewhere. He has a weapons collection and is a big bully and since he is chief of the watch they have become more of a street gang of enforcers.

Hmm...I guess you're right. Barbarian it is.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

You're right about the age and the crushing ego of the sword though. But I still like my Hoelgar as a Ftr4/Brb2/FrenziedBerserker2.

I'll check out the FB. Where's it from?

Why would the sword choose a weak bard as it's wielder when it can revel in the mad combat frenzy of a berserker?

You're assuming it had a choice between two such wielders; I was suggesting it took a bard and turned him into a berserker. Even now my suggestion could explain the apparent level loss: the sword granted bonus levels.

I quite like the idea of a young man adventurer who discovers that he is more than he seems.

So do I, but I've got whole parties of such characters! Every player in Kara's Daughters has three PC's, and we've got secret ancestries, amnesiacs, reincarnation, and on and on. For a change, I'd like to have a person who knows they are meant for greatness.

It fits better with the prophecy of his mother.

That's debatable. How does amnesia of any kind fit with that prophecy?

As for nourishment, gold dragons consume gems iirc and thus don't neccesarily need large amounts of meat.

Excellent point. Still, there are plenty of other reasons why the water would be safer for him, and more comfortable. He can be himself.

This seems like a good time to mention that you've assumed the dragon is male. I'm doing so because IMC we have more powerful female PC's that we need, but it bears asking how this would work with a female dragon.

I also like the idea that this conflict of amnesiacs is also a conflict between two intelligent swords. (Which raises an interestig question: will the swords become amnesiac too in Drakon?)

Does the memory draining work on constructs? I didn't think it did.

[The Giamarga]

No i meant it fits the prophecy of a "golden eyed youth", which i understood in a human context. But as you pointed out with the gender, mabye i was a bit premature. Though i still like a young male human guise the best and i think it makes the most sense for a disguise, and of course story wise.

Frenzied Berserker is from Complete Warrior and is a prime example of a completely overpowered broken prestige class. It grants an insane strength bonus in the frenzy, which stacks with rage and the character is bound to go up against his mates if they so much as look at him wrong. But as it is an NPC and one who is bound to go up against Dragon, I'd like to use it. If you consider it over the top, I suggest a straight Ftr4/Brb4.

BTW another poster on gleemax suggested using the Dragonslayer PrC from the Draconomicon for Hoelgar whjich might also make sense. Draconomicon also has The Blade of Dragondoom, a possible replacement for the 2E dragonslayer sword.

[The Giamarga]

Here's the info from Bleak House: Watch Master Hoelgar Arnuttson [is] an aging bitter human, Arnutson wandererd RL for almost 20 years, hoping to find a way home. He finally settled in Darkon and lost all memory of having been anywhere else. A berseker of CE alignment he is too filled with hate and hostility to trifle with anyone who belittles his authority and honor by attempting to bribe him, and he will do his best either to kill the offender personally or see him hanged. However he doesn't care if the 50 thugs that pass for the Harbor watch augment their income. Arnutsson´s lax attitude toward discipline has earned him the dislike of the leaders of both the Kargat and the City Constabulary, but as he has managed to bring down the rate of crime on the waterfront (which is his jurisdiction), the Lady Mayor dismiss their complaints.

Stats: 60hp, Int 13, AC4 with chain+1, THACO11 (+2 str to hit).

He owns a wide selection of weapons and is proficient in all of them. The only topics which he ever discusses is weapons and their care.

[Tommy Brownell]

Has anyone ever thought of using a dragon in Ravenloft as a "false god"?
In that, a dragon masquerades as a protective spirit of some sort, promising various boons in return for offerings of treasure and or human sacrifices?

Ya know, that sounds tremendous. I may swipe this for my game, if I get to relaunch this year like I hope. Bring in the cult...clue them in that something isn't right (like its a maybe a fiend masquerading)...then BOOM. Full on dragon.

I'm not a giant fan of dragons in Ravenloft, BUT, under the right circumstances it would work...and I have a friend who likes Ravenloft but likes to read WAY more than he should for a player, so a genuine sucker punch like that would be fun.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Aha.... I figured it out. It's specific to that thread... It was moved to a ... special place... where only mods can see it, while it could be compiled into this page.

[The Giamarga]

Can you move it back please? iirc it contained more than the errata...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I suppose it can't hurt. Done.

[The Giamarga]

Thanks Ron.

Here's the additional info from that thread:

In Gaz II, p.50, stats for Martira Bay there is one Harbor Watchmaster Hoelgar Arnutsson Brd8. I just found in my 1992 Trading card set a Hoelgar Arnutsson 10th level Ftr(Berserker). So I suppose Brd is a typo and should mean Brb, which makes more sense for a Watchmaster.

I would probably make him a Ftr/Brb or Ftr/Frenzied Berserker though. I have no idea why his level is lower than on the card, but he could have been drained.

His stats on the card are: 10th level Ftr(Berserker); AL CE; AC 4, 82 hp;
Equipment: bronze plate mail, helm, greatsword +3, dragonslayer (probably gold)
Background: Hoelgar and his warriors slew an entire brood of gold dragons, save one fugitive. Its mother, as she died, cursed Hoelgar to utter destruction when "the golden eyed youth wields the silver blade". Hoelgar followed the youth, intending to slay it before the curse could be fulfilled and became trapped in Ravenloft.
From that we can extrapolate: Str 15+ (Berserker kit), Dex 14- (from his AC), Con 15-18 (from his high hp);

...collated with the info from Bleak House:

Watch Master Hoelgar Arnuttson [is] an aging bitter human, Arnutson wandererd RL for almost 20 years, hoping to find a way home. He finally settled in Darkon and lost all memory of having been anywhere else. A berseker of CE alignment he is too filled with hate and hostility to trifle with anyone who belittles his authority and honor by attempting to bribe him, and he will do his best either to kill the offender personally or see him hanged. However he doesn't care if the 50 thugs that pass for the Harbor watch augment their income. Arnutsson´s lax attitude toward discipline has earned him the dislike of the leaders of both the Kargat and the City Constabulary, but as he has managed to bring down the rate of crime on the waterfront (which is his jurisdiction), the Lady Mayor dismiss their complaints.

Stats: 60hp, Int 13, AC 4 with chain+1, THACO 11 (+2 str to hit).
(So he has a Strength score of 18.xx, as that is the only way to gain +2 to hit in 2E)

He owns a wide selection of weapons and is proficient in all of them. The only topics which he ever discusses is weapons and their care.

[Germaine]

Given the rather long life of this thread and the pre-harbormaster nature of its discussions, I'm somewhat surprised that there was a Ravenloft dragon left completely unmentioned. That would be Gaymede (I believe that's right, since I altered his name)- the "Dragon of Bones" from the old Alanik Ray's Library site. I've used him in my campaign- primarily as a sort of specialized assassin for Lord Balfour- and found that he made an interesting addition at times. For the record, I also made use of a (more or less trapped) spectral green dragon in Forlorn. I had it in Arawn's Maw, guarding the Horn of the Sacred Grove as part of its hoard from life, instead of just having the Horn randomly lay around with a mist horror and a bone golem hanging out nearby. Like a couple of my other additions to Forlorn, it (actually she) was pretty powerful, but a limited area of operation prevented her from overly threatening Forlorn as a whole.

[Buzzclaw]

The thread is a little tl;dr for me but I just wanted to say that it seems like Linorms are good fits for Ravenloft.

They're backwards, greedy creatures hanging to memories of grandeur and one type can create Bog Mummies.

Also, wikipedia had an article on an old tale called the Laidly Worm...it might be interesting to use elements of it.

[HuManBing]

There are few in canon / serious writing:

- a Tarnished Dragon from the Forgotten Children netbook
- According to Elena Faithhold, there is a red dragon devasting parts of her land (Nidalia)
- Strahd had a red dragon in his castle (killed by Soth in KotBR) (but could be back as a dracolich)
- another dreamlike dragon in Forgotten Terror
- and of course there is Ebb, Azalin’s shadow dragon, with his mate (Darkon) (Gaz 2)

But in a low magic, low fantasy setting, I would recommend their use to be very rare, if ever used. Dragons do not really belong in RL, but one or two wouldn't hurt, especially if they were confined to one cluster or domain. Just for use on those special occasions when you want to return to the good old 'basic fantasy' standard villains.

Joël

(Tiny nitpick: Ebb is a female dragon. The rest of Joël's post is spot-on.)