Turning undead - whose faith is it, anyway?

[Zettaijin]

Hey, what about undead atheists? Would they then be immune to all forms of turning by way of a religious symbol? Could someone holding a scientific tome reach similar results as a cleric using a holy symbol in most cases?

[Joël of the FoS]

Just a nitpicking note. We had this discussion before in our team. You can't be atheist (do not believe in God or the Gods) in a fantasy world. Where do clerical spells come from?

But you can choose to have no faith in any god whatsoever, I think that is what you meant?

Joël

[EO]

Lamordians are atheists. Well, they have some crazy belief, but they don't believe in gods or faith.

[Joël of the FoS]

I'm always worrying when Lamordians are around.

Joël

[Zettaijin]

The Planescape setting had a faction, the Sign of One I believe, who claimed that Powers were just very powerful individuals. Thus, anyone can become a Power - with the right ultra powerful magical items, of course.

Furthermore, Athasians are atheists.

[HuManBing]

Hey, what about undead atheists? Would they then be immune to all forms of turning by way of a religious symbol?

Could be.

My proposal above identifies Ratik Ubel and Azalin as undead who in life had no regard for gods whatsoever. (Azalin used wizardly magic to heal himself by draining life from his enemies, and he never even entertained the possibility of using clerical resurrection on Irik.) So for both Azalin and Ratik Ubel, no icon of any faith works, except for the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind (and only because it has a unique power that it always works in Ravenloft).

[Ornum]

The Planescape setting had a faction, the Sign of One I believe, who claimed that Powers were just very powerful individuals. Thus, anyone can become a Power - with the right ultra powerful magical items, of course.

Furthermore, Athasians are atheists.

Sort of. That was the Believers of the Source (or the Godsmen). They believed the gods were who they said they were, but also that everyone has the potential to become a god.

The Sign of One believed that everyone was the center of their own reality and that same reality can be reshaped by the power of thought.

After the Faction War, the Godsmen and the Sign of One formed into a single faction called the Mind's Eye.

Then there is the Athar, who believe the gods don't deserve worship because they are fakes. They think they are very powerful beings, but not true gods.

Sorry, Planescape nerd.

[ewancummins]

I prefer TU as presented: a chanelling of divine/extraplanar energies. It doesn't matter what the undead target may or may not believe- the power works just the same.

A vampire's aversion to the cross [or other holy symbols] is a seperate thing, IMO.

[HuManBing]

On the GURPS forums, they suggested something similar.

Priests can use their faith to hold undead at bay. But in order to get the "turning and flee" response, the best thing to do is to give most undead an aversion disadvantage, and tailor it to be the holy symbol of their former faith.

I may go this route. All undead in Ravenloft have an aversion to the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind. Most undead in Ravenloft have an aversion to some other home faith as well. A few undead have no home faith aversion, like Ratik Ubel or Azalin (meaning they can be turned only with the HSoR and nothing else).

[ewancummins]

On the GURPS forums, they suggested something similar.

Priests can use their faith to hold undead at bay. But in order to get the "turning and flee" response, the best thing to do is to give most undead an aversion disadvantage, and tailor it to be the holy symbol of their former faith.

I may go this route. All undead in Ravenloft have an aversion to the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind. Most undead in Ravenloft have an aversion to some other home faith as well. A few undead have no home faith aversion, like Ratik Ubel or Azalin (meaning they can be turned only with the HSoR and nothing else).

So, no positive/negative energy flows? That could be modeled as Afllictions, as per GURPS Powers.

It really depends on whether you view turning as a divinely granted power of priests, or an averse reaction to symbols/display of faith on the part of others.

[DocBeard]

Personally, I'm of the belief that just because someone does not believe in the gods does not mean the gods do not believe in them.

If your turning check fails, a lot of the reasons here are great fluff reasons for the mechanical flub. But just being a cocky lich or reverent who doesn't think the gods are worth spit shouldn't be a total protection from turning or other undead targeting divine attacks.

[HuManBing]

Personally, I'm of the belief that just because someone does not believe in the gods does not mean the gods do not believe in them.

This would apply in a medieval setting campaign, where the general social mores clearly assumed something objectively omnipotent regardless of the beliefs of the individual.

For Gothic horror, however, it could go either way. There's a convincing enough argument with the example set by Anne Radcliffe's early works that God's will shall prevail in the end.

However, by the later decades of Gothic literature, enough of the Industrial Revolution had occurred to question the absolutist view of God's power. The emerging contacts with non-European cultures and the retreat of theological rule in favor of democracy led to a worldview where faith was just one aspect of society, not the mainstay.

Then of course there's the writings of H. P. Lovecraft as an extreme example of horror writing where your gods quite clearly will not save you.

For my money, Ravenloft is already a plane where the powers of gods are obstructed. (Turning is more difficult, etc.) This, combined with my own atheistic beliefs, prompts me to run a campaign where there is no guarantee of success in holy power, and where subjective perceptions of religious power are more important than objective claims of supremacy.

[DocBeard]

I think that you are sort of jumping to a conclusion with your logic, here, but I concede that Ravenloft makes the presence of the divine much more of a question than other D&D settings. To put it another way: I think holy symbols are effective not because the monster believes in the power behind it, but because a large population of sentient beings recognize the symbol as something that is anathema to the antilife properties that allow the undead or fiendish to exist. Enough people believe in that symbol that even a nonbeliever can instantly recognize it as a potent representative of a given set of beliefs.

This is true even in Ravenloft; while the churches of the land can be corrupted, a temple of Ezra, circle of Belenus-worshipers, and even a coven of Halaites are ultimately a source of aid for most of the communities they exist in. They provide medical care, education, incentive for local warriors to do something besides bully and abuse the peasantry, and otherwise are living symbols of the positive and life-affirming, and it is this symbolism that the unliving cannot stand.

I think it is possible that an unliving monster can hold the divine in so much contempt that it can shrug off divine powers, but that is what will saves or willpower defenses or whatever system you're using is for. The process shouldn't be, 'If monster X believes in god Y monster x is vulnerable.' but 'If priest x's faith beats monster y's willpower than monster y is vulnerable.'. Something like being a hardcore atheist could be a great reason to give the monster bonuses, but outright immunity is something I am always reluctant to grant, because it makes the PCs helpless. There should always be a chance, even if it's such a longshot that only a natural 20'll make it.

Yes, Ravenloft is a horror game, but it is also a heroic game, and your heroes should be able to pull off amazing feats with preparation, skill, and a little luck-for example, as I'd enhance a monster's resistance, I'd give a priest or hunter a greater chance of success if the heroic figure takes the time to personalize the threat to the monster. Nothing major, but a +1 or +2 bonus can mean the difference between success and failure, and even if it doesn't, it makes the player feel more in control of his or her fate.

[HuManBing]

Yes, Ravenloft is a horror game, but it is also a heroic game, and your heroes should be able to pull off amazing feats with preparation, skill, and a little luck

A lot of your points can probably be addressed by reiterating that I'm porting Ravenloft out of d20 and into GURPS, for a more gritty feel to the system. If you take that as a basic assumption, then you can probably discard any parts of my suggestions that don't work for d20 and keep whatever you like without getting bogged down in what Ravenloft should and shouldn't be.

(If you look at my statting for Vlad Drakov in the GURPS Ravenloft thread, for example, he's got very powerful stats for a human, but three good hits with a longsword could still take him right out of the fight.)

Basically, this mechanic makes clerical magic less powerful and requires more research on the part of the characters. Depending on what your view of the demiplane is, this might prove useful. If not, feel welcome to skip it.

I like your suggestion about an opposed roll, sort of like a "test of wills" between a faithful priest doing the turning, and the undead itself resisting being turned. I'll have to tinker with that to see if there's a decent power balance there. A bleak horror game could have it that you need a critical success to influence a skeptical undead (perhaps in fluff terms it's not actually reacting to your god's power as much as just undergoing a crisis of confidence). A heroic horror game could have it that it's a straight-up opposed roll... or even that the undead needs a critical success to resist turning.

I'll need to think about it more. It could be that in different domains, where magic is scarcer or more plentiful, likewise the power of priestly turning could wax and wane. In domains like Lamordia and Dementlieu, the post-Enlightenment tech level could mean that priestly turning, like arcane magic, isn't very reliable. Whereas in the medieval backwaters of Barovia or central Darkon, magic and faith both work more effectively.

[Isabella]

My only concern about this is axe happy GMs trying to CharOp their undead monsters. "Yes, every undead here is an atheist. They're all Lamordian. That means they're immune to magic too. Suck it, mage."

But you will always have axe happy GMs no matter what rules you use, so carry on.