Review thread of VRGtRL 5e

[Five]

How can you tell he's black from these pics?

His socks?...

Haha

Apparently this version of Godefroy was an avid golfer. So, where's his clubs?

Actually kinda cool attack now that I thought about it. Spectrally-wicked strikes against slave ghosts and any others unfortunate enough to be around him when he rages (or who otherwise enrage him); eternally caved-in skulls of his wife and daughter, their hair slick with blood...

Gotta drop the cartoon humour (golf killer) that might pop into the head to make it work though.

[Jeremy16]

Re: Godefroy

Wokeness Level – (0) how in the world did this crusty old white guy make the cut?

He's actually black.



(Like the Weathermay-Foxgroves)

I'm invoking the J.K. Rowling rule here: if it's not in the published book(s) it doesn't count. (Looking at you black Hermione and gay Dumbledore!)

[FiranDarcalus]

I don't hate those concept art pieces you shared Jester. I really like the Ivana Boritsi one....much more than in the actual book. Even Harkon Lukas' art is not so bad compared to the finished product. I like the grainy look; too bad they didn't go with that instead of the stylized, almost cartoonish vibe of the actual book.

[Jester of the FoS]

How can you tell he's black from these pics?

His features come across as very black/African.
That and the fact the Weathermay family is also black, implying the nobility of Mordent is dark skinned.

I'm invoking the J.K. Rowling rule here: if it's not in the published book(s) it doesn't count. (Looking at you black Hermione and gay Dumbledore!)

He's also on page 149. It's less obvious there, but when comparing that and the concept art it really seems like he was intended to be black by the authors. It doesn't mention his skin colour in the text, but neither does it reference Lukas' or the Twins or Sedgewick's.

And, really, given how many other changes were done to the world... doesn't it seem probable they flipped his ethnicity. You yourself remarked how odd it was the crusty white guy remained.

[Five]

The text says "Locals have varied hair colors and a range of skin tones from black to pink, often with reddish undertones."

This implies Mordent is the most diverse domain in the book. At least, in regards to skin tone. Culture in this domain isn't bound by skin colour as it often is (ridiculously attributed to; I'm Canadian, not Celtic Canadian or European Canadian!) in the real world. Ground-breaking really. At least by my eyes.

The link between the two families isn't mention in VRGtR, as far as I can see. So the suggestion that one skin tone is elevated above the other is interpretive.

So the text is neutral, freeing up the reader's mind, and the art is inclusive/not bound, freeing up the artist for that endless possibilities angle (direction aside of course). Win-win. Well done. Some might say it's fence walking, to which I say more people should be walking fences then.

I won't use the term "wokeness" (hipster -grandma rule-!), but it's a perfect ghostwalk (heh) through the sjw minefield. Bravo!

[Jeremy16]

The text says "Locals have varied hair colors and a range of skin tones from black to pink, often with reddish undertones."

This implies Mordent is the most diverse domain in the book. At least, in regards to skin tone. Culture in this domain isn't bound by skin colour as it often is (ridiculously attributed to; I'm Canadian, not Celtic Canadian or European Canadian!) in the real world. Ground-breaking really. At least by my eyes.

The link between the two families isn't mention in VRGtR, as far as I can see. So the suggestion that one skin tone is elevated above the other is interpretive.

So the text is neutral, freeing up the reader's mind, and the art is inclusive/not bound, freeing up the artist for that endless possibilities angle (direction aside of course). Win-win. Well done. Some might say it's fence walking, to which I say more people should be walking fences then.

I won't use the term "wokeness" (hipster -grandma rule-!), but it's a perfect ghostwalk (heh) through the sjw minefield. Bravo!

I don't want to turn this thread into a political debate, but this response highlights the reason why trying to advance the cause of inclusivity in this way bothers me.

The "woke" crowd says skin tone shouldn't matter in a fantasy world because it doesn't necessarily conform to the real world. But, obviously, it does matter in the real world or they wouldn't be putting so much gosh-darn energy into gender- and race- flipping everyone and everything.

You can't have it both ways. If it's important enough to change then change it and own it. This "well it could be this or it could be that based on how you interpret it" just confuses things and leads to needless arguments over the authors' intent.

Generally, I'm fine with swapping with races in order to be more inclusive because I truly believe representation for all people matters. But don't be so coy about it.

[alhoon]

His look

Lips, nose, general face feel. It's not a common archetypical black, agreed.

Well, I admit I live in a country with nearly no black people, but I watch American shows etc and ... I still don't see it. That could be the face of a black person, but it could well be the face of a South American or White person. Especially with the receding hairline, I don't see it.
He could be anything, IMO. Including this Mordentish-pink skin tone.

[Five]

The "woke" crowd says skin tone shouldn't matter in a fantasy world because it doesn't necessarily conform to the real world. But, obviously, it does matter in the real world or they wouldn't be putting so much gosh-darn energy into gender- and race- flipping everyone and everything.

You can't have it both ways. If it's important enough to change then change it and own it. This "well it could be this or it could be that based on how you interpret it" just confuses things and leads to needless arguments over the authors' intent.

Generally, I'm fine with swapping with races in order to be more inclusive because I truly believe representation for all people matters. But don't be so coy about it.

You most certainly can have it both ways. Especially in the context of a fantasy role-playing game, which is targeted directly at or to the faceless reader's imagination. It's a difficult task no doubt (just look where people took D&D; the crazy accusations against the old flag bearers), but not impossible. And the greatest tool that can be used to reach out to and "include" everyone (even the overly sensitive), in the real world, is impartiality. For them to present norm-breaking (some might even say escapism) options for a fake world...where the stink of the shit of humanity in the real world has no place (escapism haha). Or, that it only has a place in the game if your table jams it in there, whatever.

Leaving an imaginary world to be interpreted by the imagination isn't the publisher being coy. It's them doing their job.

If there were more text and art contrast in their products, neutral text, artistic interpretation and then variance, then I believe they'll be on the right path to truly focusing on kickstarting the imaginations of all.

Take Mordent as an example. Text is open and impartial. Skin tone runs the gamut, no mention of it being tied to social class etc. The pictures of one noble line suggest a dark skin tone. You can take that how you want: dark skin nobles in general, or this particular bloodline just happens to have dark skin. Either way it's interpretive. And that's assuming that the reader even gives a shit about that sort of thing!

Only thing I would do, if there was a follow-up product, is to artistically portray Godefroy different. To help further push the fact that a) it's up to the reader/DM to determine the superficiality of their NPCs, b) Godefroy could be anything, even a she, and c) the Dark Lord's/NPC's look is irrelevant, as they represent/vehicle something more than that. And yes, internet fools that probably should focus on getting a shower but who won't will get pissed at that and get on with their rants and roars, but a clear statement of intent will neutralise their attack just fine. Continuity, and "canon", are tabletop. Full stop.

But that's just me.

Either way, these are just words from a faceless one. Think, say, and do what thou wilt.

Overall, VRGtR wasn't half as hipster cooing as I thought it would be. A lot of (wrongstyle) hype pre-release, but the book is what it is.

I still prefer Black Box presentation. Ravenloft/D&D with elements and mechanics of or for moral play. But I'm bias, what with my time served, and an argument can be made that such mechanics limits certain styles of gameplay...

[Joël of the FoS]

His look

Lips, nose, general face feel. It's not a common archetypical black, agreed.

Well, I admit I live in a country with nearly no black people, but I watch American shows etc and ... I still don't see it. That could be the face of a black person, but it could well be the face of a South American or White person. Especially with the receding hairline, I don't see it.
He could be anything, IMO. Including this Mordentish-pink skin tone.

This guy would fit well in Tarrantino's westerns

[Five]

The text says "Locals have varied hair colors and a range of skin tones from black to pink, often with reddish undertones."

I should've included the next sentence in the text to better illustrate the effort put in to include all. The groundbreak I mentioned earlier.

"Celtic and English conventions inspire many names in the region."

One of those little big things, IMO.

[Jester of the FoS]

I describe myself as "woke" sometimes. I try to be progressive (or as progressive as a middle-aged white man can be) and definitely encourage D&D products to include diversity. Because everyone should be able to see themselves in the game world and feel welcome in the hobby. D&D should be for everyone.
And sometimes that means flipping people's ethnicity and gender, especially when there's no alternative

But VRGtR pushes my views to the limit. Because the diversity is turned up to 11. Heck, 15. Five characters are made black, four gay, and seven or eight made female. It's a LOT.
It just feels like each domain was made in a vacuum and every disparate author decided to make their land more progressive. So rather than a couple lands representing the diversity of humanity, instead everyone is a minority. Van Richten is the only straight white male left alive.

Especially as Ravenloft is a patchwork quilt of a world. They didn't need to make Vlad Drakov a woman, they could have just had his daughter ruling her own domain in the Mists. Viktra Mordenheim didn't need to be a Mordenheim as her story was much more Reanimator than Frankenstein: they should have just leaned into those differences.
But I could probably live with that. It's not hard to integrate into canon or just assume these are alternate versions of the classic domains pulled in from the multiverse.

I'm much more irritated by how it just destroys Ravenloft's history and canon, erasing every past event. Except the Grim Harvest... but that just creates a contradiction as it's 735 BC but Darkon is destroyed (ditto Sithicus as Soth has escaped). Even Easter Eggs feel weird, like how the Whistling Fiend has the Key to the Abyss when he is killed after he claims that item.

[alhoon]

Van Richten is white? How do we know he's straight? Not that I ever wondered but he seemed Asexual to me. I don't remember the various products where his son is mentioned though. Perhaps he's a biological son.
And for that matter, Azalin is clearly asexual.

Now, on what you just said: I think the best option was to gender-flip a couple of darklords, make Ivana and her Ermondenung friend clearly homosexual, race-flip a few people and...
create new domains with the darklords being from various sexual orientations and ethnicities.

[Mistmaster]

Van Richten is white? How do we know he's straight? Not that I ever wondered but he seemed Asexual to me. I don't remember the various products where his son is mentioned though. Perhaps he's a biological son.
And for that matter, Azalin is clearly asexual.

Now, on what you just said: I think the best option was to gender-flip a couple of darklords, make Ivana and her Ermondenung friend clearly homosexual, race-flip a few people and...
create new domains with the darklords being from various sexual orientations and ethnicities.

My Azalin had quite a lovely marriage before Darcalus/Vecna XVI had his wife killed.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Van Richten is white? How do we know he's straight? Not that I ever wondered but he seemed Asexual to me. I don't remember the various products where his son is mentioned though. Perhaps he's a biological son.
And for that matter, Azalin is clearly asexual.

Now, on what you just said: I think the best option was to gender-flip a couple of darklords, make Ivana and her Ermondenung friend clearly homosexual, race-flip a few people and...
create new domains with the darklords being from various sexual orientations and ethnicities.

Azalin is literally wearing the bones of his son.

I don’t think he is asexual.

[Seven]

How can you tell he's black from these pics?

Black people and white people (and Asians and Native Americans, all ethnic groups) have different facial structures.