Elminster fanboys lost their mind...

[Jimsolo]

http://fans.vote/ACmQUZPsWRE/who-would- ... -elminster

If you don't follow D&D memes, they have been doing a bracket style 'Who would win' tournament. The last semifinal comes down to Strahd vs Elminster. Feel free to stop by and levy your vote. (Unless you would vote for El. In that case, pretend you never read this.)

I'd love to see Strahd in the final instead of the same old Raistlin vs Elminster argument.

[alhoon]

No offense Jimsolo, but you don't have to be a "Fanboy" to realize that one of the most powerful wizards in existence would quite easily defeat the "default" vampire wizard that Strahd is in 5e. Elminister is probably CR 20-22. Strahd is CR 15. Not much of a contest.

[Mistmaster]

In 5th edition I agree; In Pathfinder, my Strahd is 29 and we can start to reason about it.

[Resonant Curse]

In 5th edition I agree; In Pathfinder, my Strahd is 29 and we can start to reason about it.

In 3rd edition Strahd wasn't going to have anything on him either from his canon stats.

Strahd is a decent level necromancer with a few nice toys and somewhat above average vampire abilities for his age category. Hardly a decent match powerwise for one of the most powerful archmages around and a Chosen to boot with a ludicrous selection of magic items at his disposal. Elminster has enough counters and contingencies in printed statblocks, let alone his capabilities as they are presented in the novels.

[Jimsolo]

In any situation where Elminster could fight Strahd, Elminster is going to be bereft of Mystra's power. Any situation where Strahd is fighting the Old Mage means that either A) Mystra and the DPs influence will cancel one another out, or B) the Dark Powers will be giving Strahd the advantage. With the nature of Strahd's situation, I can't conceive of any way they'd come into conflict with one another where this isn't the case.

Furthermore, Strahd rarely faces anyone full-bore. He wallows in a puddle of self-pity and apathy. The times within the fluff that he actually has some drive are so few as to be almost nonexistent, but for a fight of this magnitude, one assumes Strahd is actively pursuing the Old Mage's defeat. (Otherwise, Elminster blasts him, Strahd yawns and regenerates after El goes home.) When he's got the fire, though, he's a monster. He's a tactical genius on a level beyond Elminster, a military leader par excellence, in command of a well disciplined army and enough monsters to make Elminster's sojourn to the Hells look like a trip to Disneyland, and has had years to plot contingencies against a foe just like Elminster. If he is roused to actually WANTING to kill Elminster, nothing's going to stand in his way.

[The Lesser Evil]

Honestly, I have to go with Elminister on this one, even without the backing of Mystra, Elminster is in a power league of his own. I think demanding that Strahd be the most powerful wizard is in err, because that is mistaking the source of Strahd's appeal is simply his power. It is probably just as much, if more his personality, past, and curse than it is his power.

I don't really think darklords need to be all powerful or invincible as they are fallible characters for the PCs to interact with, avoid, outsmart, and on a rare blue moon, go toe to toe with.

[alhoon]

In any situation where Elminster could fight Strahd, Elminster is going to be bereft of Mystra's power.

I respectfully disagree with that. After all, Mystra is more powerful than the DPowers.

I would agree with the "Strahd's appeal isn't his power" actually. If anything, Elminister's lack of appeal for me IS his power. What's the point of using an NPC that fight Gods or solve everything?

Otherwise, Elminster blasts him, Strahd yawns and regenerates after El goes home.

True and what I would consider would happen...

He's a tactical genius on a level beyond Elminster, a military leader par excellence, in command of a well disciplined army and enough monsters to make Elminster's sojourn to the Hells look like a trip to Disneyland, and has had years to plot contingencies against a foe just like Elminster. If he is roused to actually WANTING to kill Elminster, nothing's going to stand in his way.

Well, that's making a lot of assumptions I consider false, but of course, your opinion may vary.
First, Elminister is smarter, older and more experienced than Strahd. Frankly, he has fought undead mages three times more powerful than Strahd. Like Lauroch the big lvl 30 lich.
To put simply, I think it's the other way around: Elminister is a tactical genius on a level far beyond Strahd, experienced in fighting powerful monsters.

Second, no, Strahd can't master an undead army like the one Elminister faced in hell. He simply isn't that powerful. Of course, Elminister got his butt handed to him in hell...

Third, Strahd doesn't have contingency plans for someone of Elminister's caliber as proven when all he could do with Azalin is back him to a stalemate, based on the far-younger-and-less-powerful lich's tactical shortcomings. Even Soth was considered a viable threat for Strahd.


Long story short: Strahd couldn't win against Azalin. Elminister can easily defeat pit fiends and was able to get a stalemate from the post powerful lich in existence. It won't (IMO) even be much of a fight.

In 5th edition I agree; In Pathfinder, my Strahd is 29 and we can start to reason about it.

Did you use a translation of "Canon" Strahd's stats for that?
But anyway, yes. Bumped at CR 29, Strahd has a chance if Mystra doesn't intervene.

But at CR 29, Strahd starts to fall in the "Elminister trouble" bubble: He's so powerful that there's little point in using him, like with Elminister. He loses much of his appeal.

[Mistmaster]

In my opinion Strhad should not be used as a mere end-level boss; He is the oldest serving Darklord, and you can't simply come in his castle, well prepared, and beat him, no way; He needs to be an epic-level threat;That's of course, because I plan to use him as force of nature and a source of troubles, or of opportunities, more than someine characters needs really to fight against . If someone wants to use him as an thought, but not impossible challange, his level may be adjusted, I suppose. In my opinion defeating Strahd ushers a whole new age for the whole Land of Mists, so it should happen only at the end of a twenty level campaign.

[Dark Angel]

Honestly, I have to go with Elminister on this one, even without the backing of Mystra, Elminster is in a power league of his own. I think demanding that Strahd be the most powerful wizard is in err, because that is mistaking the source of Strahd's appeal is simply his power. It is probably just as much, if more his personality, past, and curse than it is his power.

I don't really think darklords need to be all powerful or invincible as they are fallible characters for the PCs to interact with, avoid, outsmart, and on a rare blue moon, go toe to toe with.

Essentially it comes down to Batman and Superman (No, not that movie), but the concept types. Yes in a straight up, head to head fight Strahd would likely be defeated against the more powerful powers and items of Elminster. Strahd would need an edge (and would likely get it easier than Elminster via magic and spies). If Elminster's magic (does he prepare his full battle array all the time? Not likely) and magic items can be countered (his version of kryptonite), Strahd has a better edge. Strahd is the more compelling and tragic figure (which, like Batman, appeals to me more) and I would be rooting for him the whole time. Like Superman, Elminster would probably turn Strahd into a fine mist (see what I did there?) and reduce his castle and minions to nothing. He would win, but Strahd's my boy. Good luck to Elminster, he would know he was in a fight for sure.

On a minor note in a similar vein (I swear I am not trying to make vampire puns although comparing Batman to Strahd was not helping), my players growing up in the 90s all had their own campaigns they would run and we would rotate as needed. I ran Ravenloft (and have kept up with it so well I can say I won that battle) others ran Greyhawk, the Realms, Dragon Lance, Birthright, Spelljammer, and Planescape. They would talk smack about how this mage could take Strahd, etc. So I ran a high level scenario with three of my players pulling from Greyhawk, Spelljammer, and Planescape (I think, not 100% it has been a while). Originally they were to play high level mages, but saw the issues with that (spell memorization, healing, poor combat ability, etc) and went with a paladin, a fighter/mage, and a priest. I ran them in Barovia and they got into it with Strahd eventually, but he was definitely no pushover and did not engage them directly. Running something like that now, I would be going for such a body count it would be sickening. Good times.

[The Lesser Evil]

Essentially it comes down to Batman and Superman (No, not that movie), but the concept types. Yes in a straight up, head to head fight Strahd would likely be defeated against the more powerful powers and items of Elminster. Strahd would need an edge (and would likely get it easier than Elminster via magic and spies). If Elminster's magic (does he prepare his full battle array all the time? Not likely) and magic items can be countered (his version of kryptonite), Strahd has a better edge. Strahd is the more compelling and tragic figure (which, like Batman, appeals to me more) and I would be rooting for him the whole time. Like Superman, Elminster would probably turn Strahd into a fine mist (see what I did there?) and reduce his castle and minions to nothing. He would win, but Strahd's my boy. Good luck to Elminster, he would know he was in a fight for sure.

The "Superman vs. Batman" analogy only works if you take on faith the premise that Strahd is craftier than Elminster. I don't see any evidence to suggest that.

[alhoon]

The "Superman vs. Batman" analogy only works if you take on faith the premise that Strahd is craftier than Elminster. I don't see any evidence to suggest that.

I don't have numbers but if we compare intelligence and wisdom scores, I'm pretty sure we will find evidence Elminister is way craftier than Strahd...

[Dark Angel]

The "Superman vs. Batman" analogy only works if you take on faith the premise that Strahd is craftier than Elminster. I don't see any evidence to suggest that.

I don't have numbers but if we compare intelligence and wisdom scores, I'm pretty sure we will find evidence Elminister is way craftier than Strahd...

Sorry, it wasn't based on attribute scores or inherent 'panache', but more rather the comparison between two very different (but (as no one can argue) very dangerous foes). Let's face facts that the Dark Powers would not allow Strahd to leave the Demiplane and Elminster would more likely be brought to him. Strahd on his home turf with all of his minions and networks and little tricks is a bit more like Batman than not. Knowing what I know about Elminster (which is not much and based on 2nd edition materials) puts him at 30th level and pretty close to divine status. All things told though? Go Team von Zarovich!

[The Lesser Evil]

[
Sorry, it wasn't based on attribute scores or inherent 'panache', but more rather the comparison between two very different (but (as no one can argue) very dangerous foes). Let's face facts that the Dark Powers would not allow Strahd to leave the Demiplane and Elminster would more likely be brought to him. Strahd on his home turf with all of his minions and networks and little tricks is a bit more like Batman than not. Knowing what I know about Elminster (which is not much and based on 2nd edition materials) puts him at 30th level and pretty close to divine status. All things told though? Go Team von Zarovich!

I think you're making a lot of assumptions and stipulations probably don't necessarily follow. I doubt Mystra would allow her favored Chosen to simply be taken away. I doubt the DPs would take Elminister just too have him fight Strahd. Another assumption that this argument is based upon is that even if Elminster were grabbed, that he would suddenly go about and announce his presence like a big idiot. Strahd is not terribly attentive on a day to day basis, so it's very possible for elminster to slip under the radar. Not to mention all the enemies Strahd has that might exploit the situation.

I hear you, Team Zarovich go. However, as much as one would like winning over the other, that's not the same as what would be the most plausible outcome. And if you have the Dark Powers directly intervene, that's switching goal posts. Because now it's Elminister vs. Strahd and the Dark Powers.

[thekristhomas]

What do we count as a victory in this scenario?

IMHO Elminster is like a high level party on his own, and high level parties kick Strahd's butt all over the world every time someone gets out one of the many iterations of I6 (well not every time, but you know)

but of course, Strahd isn't destroyed at the end of I6, even if defeated he'll come back.

So are we saying that Elminster can only claim victory if Strahd is destroyed utterly? (with no take backs)

IMHO That would require the destruction of the demiplane itself, is Elminster capable of such a feat?

again only my opinion, but I've got a feeling he could, given time.

So Elminster gets trapped in Ravenloft, meets Strahd, destroys Strahd

Now he's got however long it takes Strahd to come back (I think sometimes it takes decades) to learn all he can about the demiplane.

Strahd comes back, confronts Elminster, boom Strahds destroyed again

Rinse and repeat however many times it takes Elminster to work out that he needs to "undo" Ravenloft

Elminster then arms a whole bunch of adventurers with the info they need to further his goals, this is Elminster, this is what he does.

At some point he's going to work out that if he finds the Alchemist and rejoins the two Strahds he'll probably be able to destroy Strahd

A few successful quests by well informed and well intentioned adventurers later Elminster teleports the Alchemist and the Apparatus straight into Castle Ravenloft and forces the Creature into it using showy high, near deity, level magic, some lightning strikes and boom

GAME OVER

[IrvyneWolfe]

Could the DPs take Elminister? Sure, they took freakin' Vecna when he was just a demi-god and held onto him for a while (sure he got away but I think that was the DPs testing the limits of what they could actually hold). As overpowered as Elminister is he's not a demi-god (quite yet). Mystra would definitely have something to say about the DPs taking her favorite muscle, however. Generally I find that Full gods trump the DPs at least outside the demi-plane.

So the only way Elminister ends up in RL is if he steps inside himself, like Isolde. In doing so he likely gives up Mystra's backing knowingly.

Once inside Elminister has bigger things to worry about than Strahd. For starters there's the power checks EVERY TIME he casts a necromancy spell, or the misleading divinations. He could get into all sorts of trouble while he learns the rules of magic from scratch again. By the time Elminister and Strahd tangle the playing field could be pretty rocky.

If we're going to do this however, lets do it right. First decide on a rule set both will use. I prefer Pathfinder because I'm the most familiar with that.

Ryan Naylor has statted Strahd as a Fighter 3/Wizard[Necromancer] 8/Eldritch Knight 9 with a CR of 30 and that's the version I prefer. Thrown in the golf bag full of magic items that stat block has and Strahd is nothing to sneeze at even for a champion of a god.

Now let's take a stab at Elminister. I'll peg him as a straight Wizard 20/Archmage 10. The mythic pathfinder rules (as demonstrated by the Archmage ranks) handle that raw level of power he's naturally got that 99% of other wizards just don't have.

Provided that losing contact with Mystra doesn't void his mythic levels then we're looking at a dead heat in a straight fight. Elminister is the magical powerhouse, but Strahd is the far greater physical threat. Really in a fight this close it comes down to intangibles.

1. Is Strahd even trying?
2. How badly have failed powers checks / new magic rules tripped up Elminister?
3. Are outside forces going to jump in against Strahd? (Azzie... I'm looking at you).
4. How does Elminister fair in a strange location without all his physical resources?

Really it's too close to call and would come down to how each man waged this private little war.