Is Mordenheim a darklord? AKA a Doctor Abroad...

[brilliantlight]

Mordenheim's major crime isn't his atheism but what it entailed: trying to play God by creating life artificially. Not believing in the gods? Fine, that's free will. Trying to muck around in their sandbox? Now they're going to get angry.

One aspect of Mordenheim's "curse" I haven't seen mentioned yet is that he will never have his own ideas taken seriously. According to Gaz. II he's come up with ideas that push the boundaries of even Renaissance CL technology--and no one will believe him. As it stands it's not much of a curse for him personally, but it does make getting others to take him seriously as a scientist impossible. For scholars looking for recognition that's a living hell in itself. But going by the description in Gaz. II he doesn't care.

And this is a question I can't remember if anyone else has asked before (likely they have) but what would happen if somebody were to kill Elise or allow her to die by shutting off her life support?

She can't die the DPs won't let her.

[Cromstar]

Mordenheim's major crime isn't his atheism but what it entailed: trying to play God by creating life artificially. Not believing in the gods? Fine, that's free will. Trying to muck around in their sandbox? Now they're going to get angry.

This is actually a topic I've put a significant amount of thought into (b/c Planescape mechanics), but there is a real difference between A) choosing not to worship any deities and B) disbelieving in deities. In D&D terms, atheism is...wrong. Absolutely wrong. Deities are a real, tangible thing in the multiverse...denying their existence is denying reality...verifiable reality, in fact.

[Dark Angel]

And this is a question I can't remember if anyone else has asked before (likely they have) but what would happen if somebody were to kill Elise or allow her to die by shutting off her life support?

I think it was addressed in Adam's Wrath or Bride of Mordenheim (in Book of Crypts), but it is said that if she is killed or destroyed in even the most total fashion that Victor has samples of her tissues that allow him to regenerate her body. I think the basis is he tried to do that before and then perform a brain transplant in the past (only succeeding in recreating her brain dead and disfigured form). It is essentially a thing orchestrated by the Dark Powers under the guise of his science/medical endeavors.

[thekristhomas]

And this is a question I can't remember if anyone else has asked before (likely they have) but what would happen if somebody were to kill Elise or allow her to die by shutting off her life support?

I think it was addressed in Adam's Wrath or Bride of Mordenheim (in Book of Crypts), but it is said that if she is killed or destroyed in even the most total fashion that Victor has samples of her tissues that allow him to regenerate her body. I think the basis is he tried to do that before and then perform a brain transplant in the past (only succeeding in recreating her brain dead and disfigured form). It is essentially a thing orchestrated by the Dark Powers under the guise of his science/medical endeavors.

So is Victor aware that he can do this? Because the idea that he has regenerated her before lends some credence to the idea that he could move her, knowing his regenerating procedure would be able to bring her back, to at least the same point he's at now.

Throw in a Vistani escort to bypass any border closures, and the Doctor might be able to get away.

[Dark Angel]

And this is a question I can't remember if anyone else has asked before (likely they have) but what would happen if somebody were to kill Elise or allow her to die by shutting off her life support?

I think it was addressed in Adam's Wrath or Bride of Mordenheim (in Book of Crypts), but it is said that if she is killed or destroyed in even the most total fashion that Victor has samples of her tissues that allow him to regenerate her body. I think the basis is he tried to do that before and then perform a brain transplant in the past (only succeeding in recreating her brain dead and disfigured form). It is essentially a thing orchestrated by the Dark Powers under the guise of his science/medical endeavors.

So is Victor aware that he can do this? Because the idea that he has regenerated her before lends some credence to the idea that he could move her, knowing his regenerating procedure would be able to bring her back, to at least the same point he's at now.

Throw in a Vistani escort to bypass any border closures, and the Doctor might be able to get away.

Aware? Capable? Maybe. I would argue his perspective is that whenever he is forced to act on this (as he would not tolerate her 'suffering'), he does so because some adventurers have busted in and ruined 'all his progress'. If he were more... aware of his situation he may be able to act upon the situation as you describe. But given his hubris and his general distain for more supernatural agents (Vistani, mages, and clerics), he would never tolerate his wife to such circumstances. Again the snake eating his own tail, Victor refuses to actually do something more proactive to save his wife. The Dark Powers feast well on the suffering of the lovely couple.

[Resonant Curse]

Mordenheim's major crime isn't his atheism but what it entailed: trying to play God by creating life artificially. Not believing in the gods? Fine, that's free will. Trying to muck around in their sandbox? Now they're going to get angry.

This is actually a topic I've put a significant amount of thought into (b/c Planescape mechanics), but there is a real difference between A) choosing not to worship any deities and B) disbelieving in deities. In D&D terms, atheism is...wrong. Absolutely wrong. Deities are a real, tangible thing in the multiverse...denying their existence is denying reality...verifiable reality, in fact.

Unless you're an Athar and you believe that the gods as we know them exist, just that they aren't GODS, just really powerful berks.

[High Priest Mikhal]

This is actually a topic I've put a significant amount of thought into (b/c Planescape mechanics), but there is a real difference between A) choosing not to worship any deities and B) disbelieving in deities. In D&D terms, atheism is...wrong. Absolutely wrong. Deities are a real, tangible thing in the multiverse...denying their existence is denying reality...verifiable reality, in fact.

AFAIK there's no real penalty in 3.x for deism or atheism outside of Forgotten Realms. Plus every canon description of Mordenheim from the Black Box to Gaz. II I've read have all pretty much said it was his attempt to create life without the gods (playing God), not denying their existence (atheism), that finally caused them to curse him with his "success" in creating Adam. Prior to that he was an irritant but not a concern. But we're getting off-topic.

Lovely. She can't die unless Mordenheim does, and he can't die so long as Adam still lives and vice versa. Come to think of it, is Elise's soul even still inhabiting her form? Not that it would matter to Mordenheim if it's true or not since he doesn't believe in the soul. But if she's well and truly dead and all he's keeping alive is something he thinks is her, that further highlights his blindness to the reality of his situation. It's also the sort of "salt in the wound" torment the Dark Powers seem to like inflicting. Her periods of wakefulness and begging to die aren't indicators one way or the other. It's really however the individual DMs want to play it.

If her flesh is just so much dead tissue without any real soul then his work is a sham. He will be a true failure as a scientist and such a revelation would be the final, penultimate punishment for him. The final climax of his own curse, if you will. If you'll excuse me I have some schadenfreude to indulge in.

[The Lesser Evil]

Actually, his atheism (or at least, the fervor of it) did play a role. Check out the following passage:

"Mordenheim neither worshiped nor believed in any power higher than humanity. He was a learned atheist with a strictly empirical world view. If he revered anything, it was knowledge- particularly his own. At other times, the gods might have tolerated such blasphemy or even protected him from his own ignorance and arrogance... So fierce was his desire to create life, so strong was his denial of their existence..." (Gaz II p. 152)

[High Priest Mikhal]

Actually, his atheism (or at least, the fervor of it) did play a role. Check out the following passage:

"Mordenheim neither worshiped nor believed in any power higher than humanity. He was a learned atheist with a strictly empirical world view. If he revered anything, it was knowledge- particularly his own. At other times, the gods might have tolerated such blasphemy or even protected him from his own ignorance and arrogance... So fierce was his desire to create life, so strong was his denial of their existence..." (Gaz II p. 152)

Yes, I read the same thing last night when I double-checked Gaz. II. And I agree that it did play a role. What finally pushed them to act was "...and so frustratingly close was he to success [at creating life without them]..."

My original post was just a clarification about what caused Mordenheim to be cursed with Adam. The quoted entries posted above do a better job of illustrating what I meant than anything else. Ultimately it's academic to his current situation to keep arguing "why."

[Cromstar]

My original post was just a clarification about what caused Mordenheim to be cursed with Adam. The quoted entries posted above do a better job of illustrating what I meant than anything else. Ultimately it's academic to his current situation to keep arguing "why."

That's what I was trying to get at...his atheism was the root of his problem, and a contributing factor to why the god's gave Adam his twisted soul like they did. What role, exactly, it played is debatable (especially with multiple sources, though the above quote has appeared in a lot of them almost word-for-word)...but isn't that the purpose of these threads?

[High Priest Mikhal]

My original post was just a clarification about what caused Mordenheim to be cursed with Adam. The quoted entries posted above do a better job of illustrating what I meant than anything else. Ultimately it's academic to his current situation to keep arguing "why."

That's what I was trying to get at...his atheism was the root of his problem, and a contributing factor to why the god's gave Adam his twisted soul like they did. What role, exactly, it played is debatable (especially with multiple sources, though the above quote has appeared in a lot of them almost word-for-word)...but isn't that the purpose of these threads?

Ah, now I see. Excuse me while I try and jumpstart my brain.

[thekristhomas]

OK the general consensus seems to be that he could leave Lamordia, but won't because of leaving Elise, and even if he wanted to, Adam would close the borders to stop him.

So the major obstacle to Victor leaving Lamordia is Victor himself. This could be overcome in several ways, Victor could be kidnapped, as already mentioned, Easan, or some other powerful person with a desire for a pet mad scientist, could attempt to steal away Victor, but without Elise he would escape at his first opportunity. Which suggests another method for removing Mordenheim from his home, kidnapping Elise. If the aforementioned powerful person knew enough about Victor's situation to take Elise as leverage, then Victor would be compelled to serve them, but this scenario leaves Victor stuck in a lab somewhere, not exploring the domains. If Elise were kidnapped, not to be used against Victor, but for her own sake, maybe by surviving members of the Brandthofen family, Victor would have no choice but to seek her out, granted initially he would attempt to do so by proxy, using adventurers and mercenaries, as in AW, but eventually he'd have to take up the mantle himself, which would leave him in the unenviable position of figuring out how to evade Adam's border closure.

There are two options which spring to mind to deal with border closures, both already mentioned, Vistani guides/kidnappers, and Outsider reality wrinkles. As already pointed out though, Mordenheim hates superstition, which rules both of them out. Could he figure out a scientific method of escape? What form might such a device take?

[Dark Angel]

OK the general consensus seems to be that he could leave Lamordia, but won't because of leaving Elise, and even if he wanted to, Adam would close the borders to stop him.

So the major obstacle to Victor leaving Lamordia is Victor himself. This could be overcome in several ways, Victor could be kidnapped, as already mentioned, Easan, or some other powerful person with a desire for a pet mad scientist, could attempt to steal away Victor, but without Elise he would escape at his first opportunity. Which suggests another method for removing Mordenheim from his home, kidnapping Elise. If the aforementioned powerful person knew enough about Victor's situation to take Elise as leverage, then Victor would be compelled to serve them, but this scenario leaves Victor stuck in a lab somewhere, not exploring the domains. If Elise were kidnapped, not to be used against Victor, but for her own sake, maybe by surviving members of the Brandthofen family, Victor would have no choice but to seek her out, granted initially he would attempt to do so by proxy, using adventurers and mercenaries, as in AW, but eventually he'd have to take up the mantle himself, which would leave him in the unenviable position of figuring out how to evade Adam's border closure.

There are two options which spring to mind to deal with border closures, both already mentioned, Vistani guides/kidnappers, and Outsider reality wrinkles. As already pointed out though, Mordenheim hates superstition, which rules both of them out. Could he figure out a scientific method of escape? What form might such a device take?

That reminds me a lot of the Mr. Freeze situations from the various Batman incarnations where his wife is used as a means of controlling him. Usually never works out for the person trying to extort Freeze. Playing devil's advocate: If Easan took Elise off to Vechor to be used as a hostage, how easily could Victor up and move his operation? How easily could she be moved and be kept alive? If she can be regenerated from samples, why couldn't he just 'reset' and go on from there instead of becoming a pawn for some maniac? Yeah, he wouldn't just leave her to die somewhere, but if he really couldn't manage it (or just couldn't deal with the stress of being away from her) he would likely just make another and go from there.

[Resonant Curse]

Maybe the cloning keeps failing as long as she is alive, same way that the clone spell will just make a lifeless/suspended body if the person is alive.

[Cromstar]

There are two options which spring to mind to deal with border closures, both already mentioned, Vistani guides/kidnappers, and Outsider reality wrinkles. As already pointed out though, Mordenheim hates superstition, which rules both of them out. Could he figure out a scientific method of escape? What form might such a device take?

Alternative: Mordenheim (unintentionally) leaves when Adam can't close the borders (when he's not conscious/been beaten senseless) or perhaps, if Elise is missing, Adam let's Mordenheim leave in the belief that Mordenheim will find Elise and return to his estate once he's done so (probably a reasonable belief).