batman in ravenloft?

[jamesfirecat]

Good points. Also for Temple Fugate, as he only seems to want to kill Mayor Hill (with Batman as needed to fulfill that goat.) We only see his Fugate's chicanery in two episodes of the series, the only later appearance he's working on the side of the government (albeit against the Justice League) in Justice League: Unlimited, where he shows no sign of his hatred for Mayor Hill. (Though he still seems to have his perfect timing/precognition abilities). If one were to take this approach, one could collapse 4 and 5 as I have above and then put in an even further down the rabbit hole stage 5 for him.

I may need to rewatch Task Force X but I'm pretty sure that Mayor Hill doesn't show up at all in that episode, and Temple is working for the government most likely as part of getting an early pardon (or possibly avoid getting put to death) by doing secret missions for the government.

So for all we know Temple may just be keeping his head down, making the smart play, and working on some larger plan to get himself back in a position where he can launch knew plan against Hill after he's worked his way out of being in prison.

I mean, you have to be pretty crazy (and even he's not quite THAT crazy) to just as a non sequitur start talking about how much he hates some guy who has nothing at all to do with the mission at hand.

In short, Task Force X doesn't really present enough information on Fugate to tell us if he's over his hatred of Hill or not.

[jamesfirecat]

What about the Joker?

Is he going to be the psychopathic killer version or the Clown Prince of Crime version?

Somewhere in-between,/something else?

Something in-between.

Joker is at his best when you can never quite be sure how much method there is going to be in his madness on any given day. He might laugh off certain behavior from his minions one day that he would kill them for the next...

He might try to expose all of Gotham to laughing gas which is lethal from long term exposure so that he can steal everyone's stuff while they're unable to stop laughing.

He might steal the Mad Hatter's mind control technology, use it to turn three people who judged a comedy competition and were not impressed with his act into pathetic supervillians who will get beat up by Batman, ruin their reputations, and go to jail, while he has his own minions take their place to vote him the funniest man in Gotham.

He might use a version of his toxin to give all fish a repulsive (but harmless) grin and then try to patent them to use the money to fund his schemes.

He might decide to stalk some random guy for two years just because he dared to yell at him on the freeway.

So long as you can imagine Mark Hamil delivering his lines you're doing it right.

[jules]

What would be the joker's terror track anyway?

[The Lesser Evil]

The Joker is hard because his nature is so fluid, and he has the whole "multiple choice past" thing. And it's hard to pin a curse with him- of all of Batman's enemies he's one of them who seems to actually suffer the least- because it's all a game to him.

Unlike a lot of Batman villains, he's not visibly cursed with a mental vulnerability (like Twoface, Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Bane, Poison Ivy, etc. are), a physical weakness (like Clayface, Mr. Freeze), nor even unfulfilled social ambitions (the Werewolf, Penguin, Calendar Girl). He's Chaotic Evil to the point he's almost a figure of legend like a Bogeyman more than an understandable human mind.

[ewancummins]

The Joker is hard because his nature is so fluid, and he has the whole "multiple choice past" thing. And it's hard to pin a curse with him- of all of Batman's enemies he's one of them who seems to actually suffer the least- because it's all a game to him.

Unlike a lot of Batman villains, he's not visibly cursed with a mental vulnerability (like Twoface, Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Bane, Poison Ivy, etc. are), a physical weakness (like Clayface, Mr. Freeze), nor even unfulfilled social ambitions (the Werewolf, Penguin, Calendar Girl). He's Chaotic Evil to the point he's almost a figure of legend like a Bogeyman more than an understandable human mind.

Maybe he is a Boogeyman?

Batman can't really stop him by beating him up or throwing him in prison. Or Arkham. Even crossing the line and killing him wouldn't prevent him from returning in some form.
He's an urban legend given flesh.

Like MOVIE SPOILER FOR SOMETHING YOU MAY NOT HAVE SEEN, ALTHOUGH SOME OF THE TRAILERS AND ALL THE REVIEWS GIVE IT AWAY

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Candyman.

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PS- Tony Todd is my mental image of Von Kharkov, much more than the Darklords illo.

[The Lesser Evil]

Perhaps. A bogeyman would certainly make sense for Paridon, as Jack the Ripper became something of a figurehead for a number of murders in London (some deemed related, others not). And with the availability of cheap publications and yellow journalism in the day, it would not be hard for the public to connect a number of unrelated killers and create a composite character like Joker. This might have the effect of creating an ideological contagion necessary to spawn a Bogeyman.

Edit: And Joker has been killed by various things in the comics, yet he also comes back over and over. So he's got that going for him.

[ewancummins]

Perhaps. A bogeyman would certainly make sense for Paridon, as Jack the Ripper became something of a figurehead for a number of murders in London (some deemed related, others not). And with the availability of cheap publications and yellow journalism in the day, it would not be hard for the public to connect a number of unrelated killers and create a composite character like Joker. This might have the effect of creating an ideological contagion necessary to spawn a Bogeyman.

Edit: And Joker has been killed by various things in the comics, yet he also comes back over and over. So he's got that going for him.

A (radically reworked, keeping just the Black Box info) Sodo could be the "Joker."

He uses the surgical blade to carve smiles onto his victims.

No matter how he changes his looks, his face always reverts to a horrible smile.

[jamesfirecat]

The Joker is hard because his nature is so fluid, and he has the whole "multiple choice past" thing. And it's hard to pin a curse with him- of all of Batman's enemies he's one of them who seems to actually suffer the least- because it's all a game to him.

Unlike a lot of Batman villains, he's not visibly cursed with a mental vulnerability (like Twoface, Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Bane, Poison Ivy, etc. are), a physical weakness (like Clayface, Mr. Freeze), nor even unfulfilled social ambitions (the Werewolf, Penguin, Calendar Girl). He's Chaotic Evil to the point he's almost a figure of legend like a Bogeyman more than an understandable human mind.

The only way to make the Joker suffer, is to play up how "unfulfilled" life leaves him these days. He's been killing people for so long that it barely even gives him a rush any more. The only thing that makes him sit up and take notice is when Batman shows up to try and stop him.

Batman and the struggles Joker have with him are the Joker's only source of challenge, only source of joy in life.

The Joker: WHERE IS HE? He's never been late! There's a certain rhythm to these things: I make trouble, he shows up, we have a few laughs and the game starts all over again!


Or when deprived of his favorite foe....

The Joker: Dear friends... Today is the day that the Clown cried. And he cries not for the passing of one man, but for the death of a dream. The dream that he would someday taste the ultimate victory over his hated enemy. For it was the Batman who made me the happy soul I am today. How I agonized over the perfect way to thank him for that. Perhaps with a cyanide pie in the face. Or an exploding whoopie-cushion playfully planted in the Batmobile. But those dreams were dashed by the weaselly little gunsel sitting there in our midst. The cowardly insignificant gonif who probably got lucky when Batman slipped on the slime trail this loser left behind him. This mound of diseased hyena filth who's not fit to lick the dirt from my spats...! But I digress. The time for sorrow has passed. It's time to look to a future filled with smiles. And I'll be smiling again just as soon as we take that man THERE...and slap him in that box THERE...and roll him into that vat of acid THERE!



Batman makes Joker feel alive in a way that no one else can, and he loves/hates him for it.

Joker's unfulfilled social ambition is his horrific indescribable relationship with Batman.


Or as someone else once pointed out...


Lex Luthor: Does it bother you... bother you at all, really... that Batman likes Catwoman better? HAHAHAHAHAHA He'll never love you, sweetheart! You can keep screwing with his city, but he's never gonna take you to the prom!



In short, curse wise, have him suffer the same sort of sense overloading/deadening effect you see among some worshipers of Slaanesh in Warhammer where after a few years of breaking all taboos and doing every decadent horrific thing imaginable, nothing pings the scale any more and you have trouble feeling excited about anything.... unless of course.... Batman is involved....

[jamesfirecat]

Edit: And Joker has been killed by various things in the comics, yet he also comes back over and over. So he's got that going for him.

You could give the Joker some king of Schrodinger's Cat like power to survive anything... so long as nobody actually sees what kills him first hand.

That's why he can survive being dragged under water by a shark, falling into a smokestack, and having a huge flying warmachine crashing as a bunch of his own exploding marbles roll towards him, but after all of that in the end be done in by something as simple as

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a flag with the word "BANG" written on it.

because the PCs actually saw it directly happen to him.

Granted in D&D such "nobody could possibly survive that..." situations where the villains fate is supposedly decided "offscreen" are much less likely to happen, and anyway you'd also need to set up to the D&D players that they aren't supposed to kill anyone in this adventure, and that they'd still get XP just for "defeating" their foes if you want to maintain the Batman no killing theme theme.

[Manofevil]

I see some great material here but but a certain amount of limitation as far as source material is concerned. I love Bruce Timm's animated series as much as the next guy and I understand that not everyone can afford to buy comics but I'd expect a little more diversity in source material. Like this passage from the graphic novel 'Arkham Asylum- A Serious House on Serious Earth' regarding the Joker's fluidity:

BATMAN
Well, you’ll pardon me for saying, but your techniques don’t seem to have had much effect on the Joker.

DR. RUTH ADAMS
The Joker’s a special case. Some of us feel he may be beyond treatment. In fact, we’re not even sure if he can be properly defined as insane. His latest claim is that he’s possessed by Baron Ghede, the voodoo loa. We’re beginning to think it may be a neurological disorder similar to Tourette’s syndrome. It‘s quite possible we may actually be looking at some kind of super-sanity here. A brilliant new modification of human perception. More suited to urban life in the twenty-first century.

BATMAN
Tell that to his victims.

DR. RUTH ADAMS
Unlike you and I, the Joker seems to have no control over the sensory information he’s receiving from the outside world. He can only cope with that chaotic barrage of input by going with the flow. That’s why some days he’s a mischievous clown and others a psychopathic killer. He has no real personality. He creates himself each day. He sees himself as the lord of misrule and the world as a theater of the absurd. We..

Joker pops up behind her right shoulder and snatches one of her cards.

AHHH!

THE JOKER
Card games, Dr. Ruth? You know me. I simply adore card games.

Then there's the video games that were voiced by the same voice actors as the animated series. Here are walkthruoughs for some of them. There's a LOT of great Ravenloftish stuff uin these. Warning, the primary games are 2 and a half to three hours long.

Arkham Asylum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIuIIV ... Ci&index=1
Arkham City: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIuIIV ... Ci&index=1
Arkham City Side Missions:
Training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mAIfFH ... Ci&index=3
Airborne Training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMSFL3x ... Ci&index=4
The Riddler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4c5iRl ... Ci&index=5
Bane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIPtcEt ... Ci&index=6
Zsasz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA6NVWP ... Ci&index=7
Mr. Freeze: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSeEKG0 ... Ci&index=8
Mr. Freeze: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbz42JR ... Ci&index=9
Hush: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D6XMpf ... i&index=10
Remote Hidaway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66iKOnf ... i&index=11
Deadshot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9WEbUY ... i&index=12
Mad Hatter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGYPGQY ... i&index=13
Azreal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBopGlF ... i&index=14
Catwoman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emOCGP8 ... i&index=15
Harley Quinn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6EgqHY ... i&index=16
Arkham Origins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgBBitv ... i&index=17

These things watch just like movies and it's easy to spend the whole day watching.

There's also some good Batman and Joker stuff in the game Injustice: Gods Among Us - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z3kABf2s1c Tho that plays more like Mortal Kombat. And speaking of such, Here's the crossover with MK both sides . MK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccAWPdbLEco DC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=carYYHxvPMg

[The Lesser Evil]

I see some great material here but but a certain amount of limitation as far as source material is concerned. I love Bruce Timm's animated series as much as the next guy and I understand that not everyone can afford to buy comics but I'd expect a little more diversity in source material. Like this passage from the graphic novel 'Arkham Asylum- A Serious House on Serious Earth' regarding the Joker's fluidity

I was using B:TAS as primary inspiration for takes on Two-Face (well, half of it, the other half coming from the Dark Knight movie), Clock King, Mr. Freeze, and Clayface because B:TAS did a good job of condensing and distilling the material (or in the case of the Clock King, completely recreating it) to flesh out or in some cases reinvent the characters. You are correct with big fish like the Joker there's been a lot more more work done to draw from.

In the book Batman and Psychology, Travis Langeley presents several different models of the Joker (p.154-155):
1) an essentially sane killer during the Golden Age (when he originally surfaced, he wasn't that "wacky", although his lack of known background and implicit immortality certainly were present during this time)
2) wacky troublemaker committing whimsical crimes (Silver Age)
3) officially diagnosed insane serial killer (Bronze Age)
4) killer with a vendetta against the heroes- going after their friends and loved ones (Iron Age to the present day)
5) dark philosopher- killing and committing crimes to teach "lessons", with the trend of these lessons tending to become more cerebral and general over time (1970s onward).

I think with #5 we'll have the most chance of finding a viable "curse". It's been talked about how Joker can't process reality correctly or filter out what he perceives. I more like the explanation that he can't fully comprehend human nature, as in the case of "Evil Cannot Fully Comprehend Good sort of thing. In "The Dark Knight" movie, he fully expects the passengers of the two ferry cars to choose to blow each other up. And yet they down not.

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I think it's that the Joker can only see the chaotic, evil side of humanity/the universe. He can only see the universe as a great "cosmic joke" and he wants to let the rest of us in on it. He has the whole "reacting to the plot ahead of time" thing going for him, but for all his "hyper-sanity" he can't predict people to do the right thing. In my eyes, this is half of his curse, the other half being that the public will never perceive him in the way he wants to be perceived.

[jamesfirecat]

I was using B:TAS as primary inspiration for takes on Two-Face (well, half of it, the other half coming from the Dark Knight movie), Clock King, Mr. Freeze, and Clayface because B:TAS did a good job of condensing and distilling the material (or in the case of the Clock King, completely recreating it) to flesh out or in some cases reinvent the characters. You are correct with big fish like the Joker there's been a lot more more work done to draw from.

One thing I have to comment on will reformat this better once I am on computer. You say that BTAS reinvented Clock King, that is true, but also don't forget there is a reason Heart of Ice won an Emmy, it was the first time Mr, Freeze was given a proper and compelling backstory, BTAS is responsible for creating the version of Mr. freeze that now just about ever other version of the character uses as a starting point.


(Only exception I can think of is that "The Batman" cartoon show)

BTAS did even more for Mr. Freeze than it did for Clock King.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Renew-U was a beauty cosmetic though, that's what I meant by "perfect human form", not necessarily human augmentation other than looks. Hagen only used it to look like himself prior to the accident; he only used it as a disguise for when he was doing all those jobs for Dagget.

I suddenly found myself thinking of that abominable Catwoman movie featuring Halle Berry, and the beauty cream that could turn the skin to living stone if you took enough of it. That seems like it could be useful in this setting...

[thekristhomas]

been re-reading "night of the owls", they'd be a fine secret society in RL, reanimating historical assassins and recruiting circus performers as agents, great stuff

[The Lesser Evil]

been re-reading "night of the owls", they'd be a fine secret society in RL, reanimating historical assassins and recruiting circus performers as agents, great stuff

Hmm, sounds like a dark mirror of Carnival. Perhaps some former agents of the Puppetmaster? (from the Carnival of Fear novel, former darklord of I'Morai)

Another option might be to have them be some evil enemy of the Vistani who kidnap Vistani children instead of circus performers. (The Tribe of Hyskosa, as related in Champions of Darkness, were all made outcasts by the rest of the Vistani, essentially turning them into a tribe of darklings.) The Loçolico (from the Book of Shadows) could be another option.