[2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

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[2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by alhoon »

I was checking angels cause I plan to use one in my campaign.
I found the D&D next angels to be... more like warriors for the "good" political party that actually creatures of pure goodness and without malice. So, I went to the roots, AD&D.
And I found them being actually worse there. Fighting other angels and slaughtering thousands in "which brand of good" wars and holding a grudge over loses.
:? :shock:

Obviously, D&D Angels are not my thing. I want angels that are an expression of purity, an ideal creature of goodness.
Not the "Commanders not followers sent by great powers to lead mortals to holy wars" of D&D next (which reeks of pride) and of course not the slaughtering each other and holding a grudge kind of AD&D (which is just unacceptable in all levels).

So, I turn to you guys, in the forum about a game that has blacks and whites and absolute morality set by higher powers (that humans can't understand hence they see shades of grey) to give me hints about angels and how they would act in a D&D world.
Why? Cause I lost my book of Exalted deeds, that's why!

Specifically, what I ask is:
Would an angel strike an evil person down? Since the evil person has choice, there's always a slight chance for redemption. Or... is it? (Under Gothic morality there's no redemption after a point)
What about robbed-of-free-will creatures? Talons for example are made evil with a ritual. A remove curse breaks that (and usually drives the ex talon insane with shame and guilt). Would an angel strike a Talon dead if the angel didn't have access to remove curse?

Note that I speak from an "Angel is always perfect, always does the right thing and never, ever falls for the "for the greater good" or "the end justifies the means" traps" point of view.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Resonant Curse »

Don't forget the celestials acting as arms dealers for the Bloodwar so that the fiends kill each other faster. (per In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil).
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Resonant Curse »

I don't know if you were going with a more united pantheon idea or something, but you also have to consider who the angel in question is working for. A celestial servant of Belenus is going to act very differently from a celestial servant of Pelor in all likelihood, even if they are of the same "type" (of outsider, alignment, or of deity in this case).
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by The Lesser Evil »

As far as angels go, earlier on they were agents of divine wrath as anything else. They could be SCARY- you didn't necessarily want to see one. Angels that only do nice things seems to me like a more recent invention. As far a striking an evil person down, yeah, if they had to/the situation calls for it, yeah, I think they would. You could say NOT doing so would be a function of pride (or sloth) as it would wreak of merely not wanting to get one's hands dirty

In D&D, I don't see angels as perfect because they (often) serve gods and in D&D, gods aren't perfect (far from it). Remember we're talking about the polytheist model such that gods are fallible just as mortals are, they're just really, really larger than life folks. The gods of D&D make HUGE mistakes all the TIME, just like they did/do in mythology. So I guess at a basic level I don't agree with your assumption that angels are perfect because what creates them aren't perfect.

If you're making an argument that the gods created the world therefore they can define good and bad, then I can't agree with that either. Divine command theory- something is good/right because the creator gods who made everything say so- doesn't work for me because it ultimately goes back to what the god said is good is good.

Edit: As far as "being Good" goes, being a good person doesn't keep one from making mistakes, even grave or stupid ones, even with the best of intentions. If you're going by the assumption that they never make mistakes, then the question over killing somebody evil shouldn't even come up, because if they never make mistakes, then they should already know whether they'll change their ways or not. And if they know that, then free will is nothing they should care for because free will is an illusion.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Isabella »

Resonant Curse wrote:Don't forget the celestials acting as arms dealers for the Bloodwar so that the fiends kill each other faster. (per In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil).
Those guys were strongly suspected to be fallen in their NPC write ups, though.

That said, my guess would be "standard" D&D angels stem from the Gygaxian ideal of Lawful Good, which says it's okay to murder orc women because they're going to give birth to more evil orcs. So... I don't think they're compatible with Ravenloft much.

I think angels in Ravenloft try to be the best they can possibly be, but since they live in an imperfect world that doesn't always mean "perfect". Perfect is an ideal, and it doesn't work when you're shoved in a meat body and stuck in an actively malignant universe. There are too many situations in Ravenloft where every answer is going to turn out badly, and while some actions seem better than others, none of them ever seem right. And their god, which was the official "source" of all right answers for the entirety of their existence, is dead to them. They have to muddle through it alone.

Angels in Ravenloft have to make their own decisions on how they define good and evil. Isolde, for example, tends to be pretty judgemental in quick to the sword. I think this is echoed in how the twisting lays down its own judgement on people. A different celestial would probably have a different aura around it.

If you're talking about D&D in general, well, then they pretty much just toe their god's party line.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by alhoon »

While I agree to a degree... I've decided already that the Angel knows what is right and what is wrong according to their moral code (LG, NG, CG). It's not a mortal to "muddle through" as best as he or she can relying on books and intuition whether they're cut off from their Gods or not.

On another note, I would like to say that Isolde is not judgemental at all IMO and she's never quick to use the sword. She allows everyone in the Carnival and doesn't care what they do with their time (chaotic) as long as they're not harmful. She lets Kargat agents in without judgement, monsters, murderers, weird vistani with creepy masks and even... the familiar.

If she was quick to the sword, Isolde would have dealt with Maloccio in a fast and decisive way.

And that's my problem.
Why doesn't Isolde deal with Maloccio in a fast and decisive way? Maloccio is a half-fiend, irredeemable and a very important cog apparently to his father's plans.

All in all, whatever I decide as good is what the angel would do. If killing orc women is good in my world (it's not BTW) an angel would do it. But killing Maloccio \ Half-fiend leaders is good in my world!
Yet, the angels in my world, (D&D world, not Ravenloft), stay in the back. They help good adventurers fight the battles, they don't fight the battles themselves or alone. They would take the form of the nice old lady that offers them a nice soup for the night, or the hermit that would find them unconscious and heal their wounds. Not the light-clad, winged, beefcake that would fight the fiends next to them.

The problem is... why, since the fiends need to be fought?
Freedom of choice? Good for the chaotics. Why for the LG ones?
Cosmic balance? The fiends in my world act way more decisively than angels. Fiends IMC are not just the evil old lady that will whisper to the King's ear to start a war. They are the 15' tall fiend that cuts people in half with the pincers. Cosmic balance would require the angels to take more active role.
Pre-arranged deal along with the Gods? If the Baatezu found a loophole, and the Tanari didn't give a crap for the deal anyway, then the LG angels would respond. Or at least the NG angels.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Quinntonia »

I knew $100,000 getting advanced degrees in Religious Studies and Church History would come in handy on these forums eventually! :D

If we take the historic position of angels, they had some kind of will of their own, in that they can be tempted with pride and fall. That being said, they were terrifying, terrible beings, handing down the judgement of the Divine when called for, and while their own judgment was fallible, but probably Paladin-esque in striving for good, they definitely have one wing dipped in blood. The slaughtered armies, killed first born sons, and even when they showed up to talk to the servants of their own diety, they were so awe inspiring and terrifying that they were offered worship and trembling fear.

That being said, how would they act apart from a vessel of their diety's will? Good must resist, punish, and even destroy evil, it is in its essence. That is not malice or pride, that is righteousness.

An innocent, passive, Mother Teresa/Ghandi type angel is a fairly anachronistic type wherein we are imposing our current cultural concepts of goodness onto them.

That being said, your campaign, they act however you want them to.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by alhoon »

Quinntonia wrote: If we take the historic position of angels, they had some kind of will of their own, in that they can be tempted with pride and fall. That being said, they were terrifying, terrible beings, handing down the judgement of the Divine when called for, and while their own judgment was fallible, but probably Paladin-esque in striving for good, they definitely have one wing dipped in blood. The slaughtered armies, killed first born sons, and even when they showed up to talk to the servants of their own diety, they were so awe inspiring and terrifying that they were offered worship and trembling fear.
So... 5e is right historically. :shock:
That's more or less how they're depicted in there. Just a note BTW: The angels doing those terrible things were in the Old Testament I think, not the New Testament.

Anyway:

I like a mother Teresa kind of Angel, but if Mother Teresa had CR14, area spells etc and a group of bandits swarmed a village with the intent to kill... what would Mother Teresa do?
And while bandits are human, so respect-the-free-will stuff and all...
if a group of undead came to a village? What would a CR 14 Mother Teresa do?
Death is not bad, is the culmination of things, afterlife and all...
OK. what if a fiend arrived to the village to -corrupt- people and lead them astray?

I decided that the CR14 with area spells Mother Teresa would ... wait for adventurers and offer a bit of help. Problem is, the adventurers may fail and doom a couple dozen souls till the next group comes around. That's something the same infallible good being would say "That's not a good act, you should act with haste and save those people!"
The question that would immediately follow would be "And why don't you do it?!?"
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Quinntonia »

NOTE: I am not starting a religious discussion, this is a literature/history thing:

Old Testament, a few in the New - with some pretty hairy mentions, but no explicit killings - plus some in the Western Apopcypha, Orthodox deuterocanons, and tonnes in the Dead Sea Scrolls and pseudepigrapha. And that doesn't even include the later Late-Roman/Early Medieval angelology period.

But yeah, even in the NT we have clear indications of angels being so terrifying that people wanted nothing to do with them, so much so that they tend to start off every conversation with "Don't be afraid." And there are mentions in the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation) of their wars.

I mean, no matter how else they are dressed up, in the end, they are warriors, soldiers. The saying "To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" comes to mind. I'm not saying that an angel when faced with any situation would always default to violence, but you just have to assume that that is their basic function and it is always, always on the table.

Unless,. possibly, they have orders from their master that specify otherwise.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

One might get inspiration from how angels are presented in the Dresden Files novels. To make a long story short, the "Mother Theresa Angel" would let the adventurers handle it, even if they fail, even if they make the wrong choice, because the choice is what's important. The struggle is what's important, not the outcome. Even if people die because if it, angels in that series can do nothing to impinge on the free will of mortals.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by alhoon »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:One might get inspiration from how angels are presented in the Dresden Files novels. To make a long story short, the "Mother Theresa Angel" would let the adventurers handle it, even if they fail, even if they make the wrong choice, because the choice is what's important. The struggle is what's important, not the outcome. Even if people die because if it, angels in that series can do nothing to impinge on the free will of mortals.
That I like very much... although it creates other problems.
Since it's D&D and it also needs to fit my story and campaign I'll probably use a mix of that with the "well, orders from above are I give you guys this message" etc.

Thanks
Quinntonia wrote: And that doesn't even include the later Late-Roman/Early Medieval angelology period.
Out of curiosity, what does that say?
And when we have this image of angels as the cute little kids?

Also, you said that Angels are at end, warriors. That took me by surprise. I thought Angels were mainly ... messengers.
As for the "don't be afraid": If I turned my head now and saw a person, even a very normal one, even a non-threatening one like a kid, even a familiar one like my sister or a friend, standing next to me, I would be afraid since the door is locked and I haven't heard anyone getting in anyway. To the point that person's "don't be afraid" would take seconds to register. Now, if that person had wings, was bathed in light or even wore weird clothes, I would be running and ignoring "don't be afraid!" pleas
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Quinntonia »

alhoon wrote:
Out of curiosity, what does that say?
And when we have this image of angels as the cute little kids?

Also, you said that Angels are at end, warriors. That took me by surprise. I thought Angels were mainly ... messengers.
As for the "don't be afraid": If I turned my head now and saw a person, even a very normal one, even a non-threatening one like a kid, even a familiar one like my sister or a friend, standing next to me, I would be afraid since the door is locked and I haven't heard anyone getting in anyway. To the point that person's "don't be afraid" would take seconds to register. Now, if that person had wings, was bathed in light or even wore weird clothes, I would be running and ignoring "don't be afraid!" pleas

Ἄγγελος (angels) in Classical and Koine Greek is basicaly translated as "messenger" but not in the modern sense that messenger only brings words that we have. In the Ancient Near East it would be someone empowered by their lord/emperor/king to do and act on their behalf. So the message could be diplomatic, as in words, but it could just as easily be to destroy the city, pillage it, and take everyone into captivity. The "message" then would be any extension of the will of its lord.

As for how they appear, the literature seems to talk about not so much "white" clothes but more in the sense of "brilliant as lightning" and wreathed in power and purity and righteousness of such unyielding power that they are immediately mistaken for a deity themselves. The presence of one, fiery sword in hand, is enough to turn the most pious or the most brave into weeping ninnies begging for mercy.

As for the medieval angelology, it is very much based on earlier Talmudic Jewish work and heavily influenced by Plato's view of the world, which kind of saw angels as demiurges in that they were given a portion of divine power but weren't fully divine and so they could interact directly with the imperfect world whereas the Divine couldn't without either sullying itself with our filth or destroying us because He is too perfect and powerful, depending on whom theologically/philosophically you read. This thinking also necessitated a series of orders and types of angels, with certain numbers and portfolios and aspects. It all got pretty confusing.

As for the cherubs (little kid angels) that you see today, it is mainly an art history thing. Basically, the כְּרוּבִים (cherubim, in plural form) were six winged angels of bad-assness, guarders of Paradise and the throne-room of God, the very tippy-top of the angel hierarchy. But, there was a folk-religious superstition that started to take hold in the late medieval period that when people died, they became angels, which has a certain appeal to it, I suppose, and goes a long way to explain the many and varied angels they would hear about at the time in the eyes of the common folk, but no Christian sect has ever really taught this.

Basically, with that in mind in the mind of the laity, you begin to have during the Renaissance a huge interest in the Roman and Greek myths, and inspiration from them begins to make their way into artwork commissioned in the day, which was predominantly religious. So, inspired by a being such a Cupid, (but not limited to him) and with that in mind, artists began painting children as angels aiding various Biblical figures, and that became hugely popular with the high death rate (and plagues) of the time, which saw huge numbers of infant mortality. Some even had their own children's face plastered after their deaths so that they could be painted as cherubs later.

But let's face it, they are cute so they have endured, as has the whole "We turn into angels when we die" thing.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by alhoon »

When I was 4 years old, my grandmother died. I was told she turned to an angel and that eased the trauma of her passing.
I assume that if I lost most of my family in the Black Plague and expected to die in pain within a day, I would also love to hear that I'll turn to an angel and meet my family. So no, I'm not surprised we got cute angels when society was plummeting to near-collapse.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Quinntonia »

It makes sense from a psycho-social point of view.
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Re: [2e&5e] Angels that are not acting IMO angelic

Post by Zilfer »

I’ve always seen Angel’s as god’s hand’s not mouth. Though they do have Metatron for the “Voice of God”. I think the reason they are seen as messagers sometimes is because when an angel shows up and does something, it gives you an insight into what the god expects. Killing first born sons, or raining down fire and brimstone will quiet often get your attention and would “send a message”.

When it comes down to it you’re going to have to come up with your own answers I think about why an Angel would do this, or do that. For Dnd it’s easily explainable that multiple gods so they’d have different goals that’s why there are so many ‘different’ angels.

My curiosity comes into play when you have this “perfect” angel come into contact with the Dark Powers. What happens if the choice that the angel knows is “Right” is suddenly subject to a failed dark powers check? Add onto the fact that they can’t communicate with their god directly they only receive ‘distant’ replies.
I mean it would shatter most people to realize what they were doing was wrong. I’d liken it to the Piggie’s from Orson Scott Cards’ “Speaker for the Dead” which is the following book of “Ender’s Game” that takes place much further in the future.

The Piggie’s are an alien life form that are tree’s are a big part of their culture and way of life and biology. Well they have this “barbaric” as the human’s see it, ritual where they cut open the person’s body and lay out their lungs and heart to the sides of their body and plant a tree in the middle of the body for it to take root. Well in the Piggie’s society this is for their honored old ones. They literally can still communicate and is basically the afterlife for the piggies. So when they “honor” a human they think they are doing a great thing. They don’t know any better but finally when one of the barriers between humans and piggies break down they all begin weeping. They had not understood that tear’s meant pain, and had not understood that they where hurting him as they killed him and why the humans would be angry. I’m sure that was a moment of horror for them.

I imagine an Angel in ravenloft would draw the interest of the Dark Powers, because something so pure in a filthy realm…. Oh the fun they might have…. xD
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