Campaigns with Undead PCs, Low magic

[Mortu Blackbourne]

I am debating starting a campaign in the near future and DMing at my house. There are three campaign concepts I have a high interest in .

#1 An Undead PC's campaign
#2 An extremely low magic presence campaign, where a +1 Dagger is something to get extremely excited about.
#3 The best ways to debilitate overpowered PC's without coming across as manipulating game mechanics.

I was curious about your experiences with these types of campaigns. Do you think an Undead PC's campaign can work with neutral or good aligned characters. In Ravenloft the Stone Prophet I recall there is an undead Paladin, as well as a Troll that fight for you. One thing I am curious about is if the characters do not start out as undead, what are some good hooks you have used to get them to go that direction? Is it more fun to have the PC in on the joke so to speak, or more enriching to spring on them that an event has occurred to have this happen to them? Also does anyone know offhand the name of the 2nd edition source book that had these rules. I have it in storage somewhere.

In a low magic campaign, I would like a scenario where a vial of acid is a huge deal. People actually get excited at finding silver tipped arrows knowing they will come in handy some day against the werewolf in town. Flasks of oil are used. A sense of dread is present that a simple fireball won't be able to stop whatever is in the darkness. If a wand or staff with charges is found, they will get used versus being in a backpack the entire campaign because there are plenty of spells and other items available, things like this. Garlic, Holy Water, Stakes.. these become tools that get used. They are no longer fluff items in the backpack for appearances. If a thief is present with set traps skills, these may even be used against foes. Things like this interest me.

Lastly I was wondering off the top of your head some ways to equalize a campaign where you do have an overpowered character join the party. This is always a concern of mine after being scarred during teenage years gaming with a Paladin with a vorpal sword that he basically gave himself in a side quest with another gaming group before joining ours. (LOL). Some off the top of my head
- level draining creatures
- there is a spider head creature that has razor webbing that can cut off limbs and decapitate. Something like this could either maim or kill an overpowered character like that. I forget the name of this creature if anyone knows offhand. Also any other specialized attack creatures or events like this I am curious about.

[Ender]

I can't speak to #1, so I'll let others handle that. As for #2, I highly enjoy low-magic campaigns. The one I will be running shortly is intended to be one such campaign. What I may caution you to do is to inform your players beforehand that you intend to do this in the campaign. That way, they understand the feel they should be roleplaying with. Otherwise, they may act just as they would in any other game and become reckless or confused along the way.

As for #3, I can talk a lot about that, thanks to a few DMing mistakes I made early on. As another word of warning: I'd stress that you not focus on "beating" the overpowered PC(s). Ideally, during character creation, I would speak with any PC that looked to be overpowered and discuss the ramifications of their build with them. If they understand the issues, things will be a lot easier for you in the future. Perhaps the player decides to tone things down so as to not make the encounters too easy (or, as the game progresses, too difficult). Should the player not see that he's overpowered, and you let the character's build stand, that's fine; you simply have some things to consider.

Firstly, I'm not personally a fan of player vs. DM encounters. I don't find them fun and I feel it detracts from a story, making the campaign more of an excercise in metagaming and rules lawyering. That said, if that's the kind of campaign your players prefer, then to each their own. I can only say what I've done. Namely, when I design an encounter with an overpowered PC in mind, I focus on making a well-rounded encounter. If one PC is really good at one thing, then let them shine at that one thing. A fighter who has optimized for utlizing Great Cleave? Great! Send a horde at him to keep him busy for a bit. At the same time that's happening, make sure the other players have an equal opportunity to shine. The rogue can have nooks and crannies in which to hide and sneak attack. Maybe the wizard is busy fending off some ancient evil with an arcane ritual, and so on.

Now, let's say that the encounter can't be too diverse. There's one or two guys at most here and you don't want the overpowered PC immediately destroying them. There are two ways I've gone about this. #1 is to tailor the bad guys to your PCs. This requires knowing your players really well. Give NPCs abilities that work to counter some of the PCs abilities. They shouldn't do this all the time, but it should be used enough to mitigate the effectiveness of the overpowered PC. I customize most of my enemies to my players. I play to both their strengths and weaknesses. I want the PCs to find the villain's weakness, but I also want to villain to find their weaknesses. It makes things more interesting.

[EDIT: Do note that the experience I detail below is from an Eberron game and may not transition as well to a Ravenloft game.]

#2 is harder. Make the villains smarter. This really does go hand-in-hand with the first one often. I recently ran an encounter where my overpowered PCs one-shotted a villain. Yes, there may have been a x4 critical involved and a failed massive damage save on the villain's part, but it did serve to demonstrate how easily my PCs could defeat the villains I'd been placing in their way. Their next encounter was against two individuals working together: a soldier custom-tailored to counter some of their abilities, and a hyper-intelligent Mind Flayer scientist that was almost always one step ahead of them. The soldier kept the fighters in the group busy while the Mind Flayer started sabotaging their gear during combat and led them into a number of traps with his illusions. He then started stunning the group one at a time, hoping to whittle them down. The group prevailed after an extensive combat session (actually took us three or four 4-hour game nights to complete in full). In the end, they said it was a fantastic encounter. It made them think, it wasn't too easy or too hard, allowed them to shine in some moments (the druid really kicked some butt at times), and showed them they weren't invicible (the main fighter was actually downed at one point, though he didn't die).

From my experience, encounters that force the PCs to think usually helps to level the playing field. Making things stronger or more deadly to combat one overpowered PC may result in quick deaths for the less powerful PCs. It may take (a lot) more work, but if you tailor the encounters to the PCs, you can make something that they all enjoy that is still challenging without being too difficult.

[alhoon]

I would like to say that Ravenloft doesn't work as well as many may think with very low magic. I mean, Azalin gave tons of magic daggers for the Ebon Fold, a 1st lvl cleric could temporarily enchant a weapon etc.

Also, a "+1 dagger's something to be really excited about" is more difficult to happen. I mean, in the end of the day a +1 dagger is a dagger that gives a +1 to hit and damage rolls. It's not important in and on itself even if it's just a dagger that's a little better; as good as masterwork short sword. Rare? Yeah. Useful? Not too much unless you fight many "magic only" creatures without help from even a 1st lvl caster.
What I tried to do in low magic campaigns was... No "low power" items while the +3 ones are as rare (or even rarer) than usual. I.e you wouldn't give a +3 sword to an 8th lvl NPC warlord, even if he was the big bad guy, would you? Then he doesn't have a magic weapon.

If all magic weapons/armor are +3 and up and there's no +1 or even +2 items... then you can have a low magic campaign when everyone's excited when they get a magic item.
It's not a cloak at 9th lvl that gives a flimsy +1 to saves; it's a powerful +3 to saves. It's a sword that adds a solid number to hit and damage rolls. And you can have like 20-30 or so items of such power in the whole core.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

My take here is that if you want to play a low-magic undead game, ditch the D&D system entirely.

Use the NWoD Storyteller system.

[Dark Angel]

To address the low level campaign setting, one thing I found that worked well in the past was giving the player's individualized weapons and items tailored to their pcs (i.e. they can and want to used them). A fighter may get a enchanted sword while a mage may get a magical globe. That in and of itself may not be a big draw, but an enchanted dagger +2 that glows red when a wererat is nearby and allows the user to see in the dark 30 feet once a day is more likely to be held onto than a simple dagger +3 or even +4. The mage's globe may pulse when a magic user is within a certain distance, but only get more and more rapid as they near (also a great suspense builder like the radar systems in the movie Aliens). Make it a family heirloom or a symbol of an organization and it will never leave their side again. Unique items can make a big difference and become personal and integrated into the player's arsenal.

If the group is 'overpowered' and able to defeat everything physically without breaking a sweat (I have one of those), then work around it. Give them encounters where they cannot kill the target (a chase scene with a thief holding a precious item they may drop), a monster that cannot be struck down so easily (ghosts are my go-to for these, but diplomats, people with knowledge they need or contacts they require, or those with power to reach beyond the player's means, etc). A player with a super sword that can always hit and gut everything will be tempered to strike down the man who can call off the hit on his loved ones when he does not magically send his message everyday in a domain 150 miles away. There is an adventure in the Children of the Night: Demons with a fiend with a very difficult to destroy phylactery (I can let you know which if you are interested).

One of my favorite solutions to the difficult to control party is the great equalizers: terrain, weather, and physical needs. Why fight in an inn when the roof is right there (making a one on one fight much easier to pull off without flanking issues)? Why give the players a nice saunter down the Old Svalich Road when driving rain storms force them to fight their way against the cold, wet wind? Many players count on good night's sleep and the rest to relearn spells and regain hitpoints, don't give it too them a few times and watch them panic. Intelligent enemies never fight fair. The smarter they are, the more I give them a 'saw that coming' type of mentality. And last, my all powerful party was stranded on the Sea of Sorrows. They did not have the means or supplies to feed themselves (water was not an issue). They almost died of starvation before they found land and a food source. A +10 sword will not fill your tummy and Full Plate +12 will not keep you warm in a snowstorm. Don't give them sleep, don't give them food or shelter or safe haven. Give them enemies that act as smart as they are, enemies that hit and fade and never play by the rules, and obstacles that cannot be overcome by a simple spell casting or swinging sword. They are the good guys who should be held to a higher standard. You control the others who do not. Good luck and keep us posted.

[TheSalemlord]

Wow...undead campaigns without making a mess... I see it quite hard

Guides like the "Libris Mortis" and "Ghostwalk" could help you a bit. both are of 3.0/3.5 edition.

Not sure, but I think Libris Mortis had rules for Wight, Ghoul, Morgh and Mummy...as class levels if I recall.

Ghostwalk gives a variant for Ghost PC's. You also could try GazII Necropolitan rules...but can't tell you if they are balanced.

Pathfinder Blood of the Night player companion had rules for Vampire Characters.

Hooks...what could motivate an undead character? Recover something? their soul?, their original still living lover?... Revenge maybe?

[alhoon]

Gazeteer II also had info on the Necropolitan template and has an entry for Il-Aluk heroes.
Death Triumphant also had rules for undead by in my opinion, they felt a bit rushed. I also didn't like the way alignment was changing. From Chaotic good to... lawful Neutral because it's closer to "chaotic evil"

[HuManBing]

I would like to say that Ravenloft doesn't work as well as many may think with very low magic.

That's odd. In my experience, Ravenloft actually works better as a low-powered campaign setting anyway, and low magic feeds very well into that. In 3rd Ed. there are entire domains that do really well if you assume an early-Enlightenment style level of tech and corresponding skepticism about "superstitions and magic".

My take here is that if you want to play a low-magic undead game, ditch the D&D system entirely.

Use the NWoD Storyteller system.

Agreed on the first point. On the second point, I also found that Warhammer Fantasy RPG, TriStat dX, Call of Cthulhu (using the Basic Role Playing System), and GURPS all did good jobs in running a horror based game. My own personal favorite is GURPS, which is an above-average fit ruleswise, but extremely versatile and has good company backing too.

[alhoon]

I also don't get the "skepticism about magic". For Lamordia's remote places it's OK but for the cities? That people know that Hazlan's border may suddenly go up in fire or know about Corvia's spires and other magical locales of Ravenloft?
Well, that's my take on how it would be expected that magic exists.

About not working without magic items, I meant at lvls 6+. You can't harm the vampire etc without magic.

[HuManBing]

Yeah, the Ravenloft materials were inconsistent about how universal the availability of magic was. If magic doesn't work in a nation, then skepticism is a rational response. If magic does exist in a domain, them skepticism is a dogmatic denial.

In my GURPS campaign I use the mechanic of mana levels. So magic only works well in some domains, but poorly in others and not at all in some. It also may explain why Drakov doesn't believe in magic, because Falkovnia doesn't have high enough mana levels to support reliable spellcasting. It would also explain why the Kargat hadn't been able to just sneak a truckload of magical devices into Falkovnia and bump Drakov off.

This also extends to clerical magic in my campaigns. The Eternal Order is one of the few religions whose priests can actually break mortal wounds and regenerate maimed limbs, etc. This comes with a dark secret - the religion saps the life force of its sacrificial victims in order to provide these dramatic healing miracles. Other faiths, like the Church of Ezra, are more limited in their healing because they don't make this "pact of life and death" to power their spells, and this naturally gives rise to tensions and hostility.

[Epically]

Um, you guys are forgetting about Requiem, which comes in the Grim Harvest box set. It has all the undead rules, including; rolling up undead characters, new rules, role playing tips, GM tips, and campaign ideas.

[Dark Angel]

Um, you guys are forgetting about Requiem, which comes in the Grim Harvest box set. It has all the undead rules, including; rolling up undead characters, new rules, role playing tips, GM tips, and campaign ideas.

The issues I had with Requiem as a resource for other aspects of the campaign setting is not the concept of playable monsters, but the very low level ones becoming zombies and skeletons (i.e. stupid shambling automatons). Yes there could be intelligent skeletons and they could eventually become (or were rather) spell casters. So what are they now? Liches? Quasiliches? And without the inherent powers involved there is a justifiable flaw to that. But how come liches don't create skeletons from mages and disguise themselves as the big bad guy, place a crappy piece of costume jewelry on it, and send it off to fight hostile players while it continues its work. Why? Because skeletons are stupid and too dumb to maintain such a masquerade. The rest of the Ravenloft Setting issues further complicate this matter as how many lords can outright control undead monsters without even a roll to do so? Elves and mages have a hard enough time trying to fit in, how would ghouls with their stinking stench work? I see what they are trying to do and see how it can work within Necropolis, but long-term issues can make it a hard campaign to run. I would rather consult the Van Richten Guides and use them as reference to build undead npcs (and pcs) from.

[alhoon]

It also may explain why Drakov doesn't believe in magic, because Falkovnia doesn't have high enough mana levels to support reliable spellcasting. It would also explain why the Kargat hadn't been able to just sneak a truckload of magical devices into Falkovnia and bump Drakov off.

Drakov just doesn't trust magic, he believes in it. The Radiant Tower is the place where state wizards practice. I.e. Canon Falkovnia has a mage guild so to speak. Also Kargat doesn't care about Drakov; it's his curse to be considered a failure after all. When they had some use for Falkovnia, as in harvesting souls, they went there with a trackload of magic items, established the Ebon Fold and reaped souls using +2 daggers that drained souls.
Probably everyone by now knows that a huge city has been destroyed in a blast of magic and was filled with undead. News of such catastrophies tend to travel. Travelers are warned that the mist around the village of Barovia is lethal and those that believe it's lies by the vistani to sell the antidote, die. The examples of apparent magic are too many (in canon) to viably say that there are many people that are skeptical.

Of course, your campaign may be different. I'm just saying that with Ravenloft as is, magic is nearly everywhere. Falkovnia has the Radiant tower, the magic used on the Talons, they had a whole society of resurrected thugs with magic daggers etc.
If you prefer a way more magic-light Ravenloft, all the power to you, but it requires some heavy tinkering to remove the prevalent magic...


Or you just make your own cluster with 2-3 domains and make it without nearly any magic.

Um, you guys are forgetting about Requiem, which comes in the Grim Harvest box set. It has all the undead rules, including; rolling up undead characters, new rules, role playing tips, GM tips, and campaign ideas.

We don't. I mentioned the Requiem, but the rules weren't too good in my opinion. Especially the corruption that moved you from Chaotic Good to Lawful Neutral because it was "closer to evil".

[steveflam]

A low magic campaign is awesome. RL is not for those "powergamers" and should not be magic heavy. Any magic item should be earned, appreciated. That is how I see it since having started playing in the 90's and second edition.

[HuManBing]

Alhoon: fair points on the canon issue. As my starting point assumes that canon has failed me and I want to change canon, there's not much else to say in response to the various citations of canon. One issue was regarding the assassins with magical daggers -are you referring to the Ebon Fold? They were featured in the Requiem set and as I recall they worked for Azalin, not Drakov. Perhaps I've misunderstood a factor though.

I agree with alhoon that the Requiem rules for undead champions are not very balanced or interesting.

Specifically to address the OP's question, I seen to recall that Third Edition used some templates for it's undead types that could stack onto a PC class. Dunno about fourth edition or path finder.