What's to be done about the languages problem?

[ewancummins]

Another possibility:

Use a languages chart like the one in Time of the Dragon.


Write all the languages down on a piece of paper. Draw a little rectangle around each one. Use a pencil because you may want to swap some positions later in this process.

Draw lines connecting the closely related languages.

Then draw lines connected the more distant groups of languages, with dots added wherever you want to emphasize the divergence.

You should end up with a sort of subway line (or maybe a broken web) map structure.


To determine how well two characters or groups can communicate without a common language, count along the chart lines and add up all dotted segments/language boxes. -10% for each intervening segment/box. That should yield something between 90% comprehension (virtually the same language) and 0% (for wholly unrelated/mutually alien and unintelligible tongues.)


Does that make sense?

[High Priest Mikhal]

Ha!

Bad Old America?


Naw, just humanity, bro, humanity.

I know. It surprises me how we as a species can survive ourselves. Best not say anything more if I don't want to be lambasted as a nihilistic misanthrope. Again. Stupid GoComics... And we're derailing this thread, too.

[Dark Angel]

Another possibility:

Use a languages chart like the one in Time of the Dragon.

Would you account for languages from other lands (i.e. outsiders) into this system? Someone from the Realms would fall pretty close to the language of Nova Vaasa while someone from Ansalon (Dragonlance) may have a harder time understanding someone from Falkovnia (which hails from Taladas to the south). And that way you could have those situations accounted for (and so the chart doesn't look as bare).

While not similar to your actual process, the end result is similar for those of us who are more familiar with the Twilight:2000/2013 game (or Dark Conspiracy). The major (or more common) human languages are arrayed in family groups with a percentage chance of potentially understanding similar tongues. While not exclusive to the game, it is the one I am most familiar with and you would make certain personal touches (like the language of the dwarves and gnomes has a 30% chance of understanding while those who come from Kartakass can understand 10% of the elven language, etc). Our group always had the language lotto where we rolled on the chart (21 family groups) and then rolled the die to see what language we got in that family. It was always good times (my last character had Korean and I explained that I had an abusive wife who called me every name in the book, wacky fun).

[Zilfer]

Taiwan, actually. I was travelling on my mother's passport, a U.S. passport, and the Taiwanese border guards refused to let me enter without my own passport. Something about mainland China and Commies.

My father had to call his father to pull a few strings. Not too long thereafter, the border guards got an irate phone call from somebody in the ministry, asking them exactly which one of them seriously suspected a two-year-old of intent to commit espionage.

That's awesome. Glad it worked out. And... meh as for us being obsessed with one thing or another, I think that's just the media. People all around where i live don't actually believe Y2K or mayan calender. We "feed" the fuel a bit because it's fun to poke fun at and make comments like.

"Well at least we don't have to worry about that homework assignment because the world's going to end tomorrow."

It keeps some people entertained though. xD

[ewancummins]

Another possibility:

Use a languages chart like the one in Time of the Dragon.

Would you account for languages from other lands (i.e. outsiders) into this system? Someone from the Realms would fall pretty close to the language of Nova Vaasa while someone from Ansalon (Dragonlance) may have a harder time understanding someone from Falkovnia (which hails from Taladas to the south). And that way you could have those situations accounted for (and so the chart doesn't look as bare).

While not similar to your actual process, the end result is similar for those of us who are more familiar with the Twilight:2000/2013 game (or Dark Conspiracy). The major (or more common) human languages are arrayed in family groups with a percentage chance of potentially understanding similar tongues. While not exclusive to the game, it is the one I am most familiar with and you would make certain personal touches (like the language of the dwarves and gnomes has a 30% chance of understanding while those who come from Kartakass can understand 10% of the elven language, etc). Our group always had the language lotto where we rolled on the chart (21 family groups) and then rolled the die to see what language we got in that family. It was always good times (my last character had Korean and I explained that I had an abusive wife who called me every name in the book, wacky fun).

You could do that, yes.

I wouldn't say Falkovnian is closely related to the dialects spoken in the borderlands of Thenol. I rather like the idea that Vlad Drakov is a foreigner and his native tongue is quite alien to his conquered kingdom. 'Vlad Drakov' is a corruption of his real name. I would place Falkovnian close to Lamordian on the language chart, if I used such a chart.

YMMV


One way to relate a generic, off-world "D&D Common" to such a chart is to treat it as the rough equivalent of modern English.
One would presume the closest relative in Ravenloft would be Avergnite, Zherisian, and Mordentish.

More specific language relationships among worlds might be interesting, but perhaps of limited utility in most campaigns.


IMC, I treated Lord Sybolt's out-lander PC (a native of Furyondy, on Oerth) as having a vague familiarity with Darkonese and related dialects-- he didn't really speak the language, but he caught familiar words and phrases.

[HuManBing]

I rather like the idea that Vlad Drakov is a foreigner and his native tongue is quite alien to his conquered kingdom. 'Vlad Drakov' is a corruption of his real name. I would place Falkovnian close to Lamordian on the language chart, if I used such a chart.

This is pretty much exactly what I do. The Falkovnians have two tongues - Trecht (Germanic, native tongue), and Dvoryrech (Slavic/Russian, imported "noble" tongue). And "Vlad Drakov" itself is a mispronounciation of the warlord's two titles, "Son of Bela" and "Master Cob". Both of these were used as insults when he was a child, and when he became an adult he reclaimed them as an ironic moniker.

[ewancummins]

I rather like the idea that Vlad Drakov is a foreigner and his native tongue is quite alien to his conquered kingdom. 'Vlad Drakov' is a corruption of his real name. I would place Falkovnian close to Lamordian on the language chart, if I used such a chart.

This is pretty much exactly what I do. The Falkovnians have two tongues - Trecht (Germanic, native tongue), and Dvoryrech (Slavic/Russian, imported "noble" tongue). And "Vlad Drakov" itself is a mispronounciation of the warlord's two titles, "Son of Bela" and "Master Cob". Both of these were used as insults when he was a child, and when he became an adult he reclaimed them as an ironic moniker.

Right, I've read some of your material. Good stuff.

[Black Knight]

I'll skip the obvious solutions of magic and magic items. Those should be readily apparent.

Not my favourite tack. Funnelling all conversation through 10-minute intervals of the party mage being able to speak isn't a barrel of laughs for the other players.

Another possibility:

Use a languages chart like the one in Time of the Dragon.


Write all the languages down on a piece of paper. Draw a little rectangle around each one. Use a pencil because you may want to swap some positions later in this process.

Draw lines connecting the closely related languages.

Then draw lines connected the more distant groups of languages, with dots added wherever you want to emphasize the divergence.

You should end up with a sort of subway line (or maybe a broken web) map structure.


To determine how well two characters or groups can communicate without a common language, count along the chart lines and add up all dotted segments/language boxes. -10% for each intervening segment/box. That should yield something between 90% comprehension (virtually the same language) and 0% (for wholly unrelated/mutually alien and unintelligible tongues.)


Does that make sense?

I had a go, but instead of lines I colour coded a map so that Cultural Levels show up as the same colour and related domains to languages. Assuming we either say that the Dark Powers have a consistent linguistic story or that we reject the 'made up worlds and people' story, and go with each realm being taken from somewhere, we can sketch out about four worlds which these places could have been drawn from, based on languages and similar cultural levels:

High-Magic World
Perhaps similar to Greyhawk, or Lost Realms - Darkon is taken from a world of many races. Tepest might fit in here as a back-water village, and the old Arak might fit in as an underdark Realm. Since Sithican Elves may as well speak the same language as Darkon Elves, why not make Sithicus and Darkon from Krynn? After all, there's a question of what Soth's native language is, and whether the players can speak it, and why Soth seems able to communicate with the elves of the Realm, and the Gypsies. Strahd and Magda would probably be able to speak Darkonese, so this fits with the information in the Knight of the Rose novel.

I'm starting part II of my campaign tomorrow and languages and history are a big part - so I'm making sure it's all consistent.

Medium-Fantasy Realm
Nova Vaasa, Hazlan, Kartakass, Verbrek. A land of gnomes and low technology.

[Dark Fantasy World]
Again, we're in a land of low technology and a little magic, but with a dark, Slavonic twist. Borca, Barovia and Invida fit in perfectly, with Invidia being closer to more advanced realms. Falkovnia might also fit, despite the different language. I can readily imagine Vlad as a descendant of Strahd.

Civilised Domains
Dementlieu, Lamordia and Mordent all seem pretty advanced. Verbek only has a thousand people in it in little villages, so it makes sense that the technology isn't in use - one needs cities to make architects and printing presses and the wonders of the modern world. Plausibly this place could be earth if a suitable location could be found. Maybe England, with Norman French as 'High Mordentish' and Verbek could speak nothing but English/ Low Mordentish. This could also leave 'Lamordia' as simply an English-drawn realm.

The name 'Zherisia' doesn't really fit with French or English (but hey - it's meant to be an Anglo-style realm), so for my own campaign I've stuck in Zherisia as a 'floating island' domain which pops up in random locations across all of the Western Core. Sometimes in the sea, sometimes on a long, lonely road in Lamordia (with 'Zherisian' as a dialect of 'Lamordian').

This explanation would be neat as Roman history could just be added to the domains, but doesn't really answer how - in fifty short years - all people turned from Christianity to Ezra. Or how, indeed, anyone could adopt a mist-based religion within the short time-scale presented. Perhaps a note about mass-exodus from the old religion could be mentioned?

(Also, feel free to correct or add to the language map - you can edit it)

[ewancummins]

I like that, Black Knight.



I wouldn't actually use Earth for Mordent's origin world, but YMMV.

Based on the Ravenloft 2 module I'd say that Mordent is not on Earth, or at least not historical Earth. It's presented as part of an unnamed fantasy world with orcs, elves, halflings, etc in regions beyond Modentshire (orcs are in the module). The local religion is ''the High Faith.''

I'm no canon purist, so of course I wouldn't feel bound to retain all the details of the early modules.


Other bits-

• The major city of Osterton, three days' travel north of Mordentshire, is the seat of the church or at least an important center for it.
  
  
  Germain d'Honaire's attitude that "ghosts, spirits, and the supernatural" are interesting folktales but mostly superstition seems atypical and eccentric but hardly crazy. I would not read that reference to "supernatural'' as all magical things, only certain types. It's my guess is that he's able to treat these matters as folktales because incorporeal undead are quite rare in the setting. Not all magic and monsters. Giant spiders, orcs, ogres, and such are natural beasties. My guess is most monster types are found in uncivilized or wasteland regions, not settled areas. Clerical healing obviously exists--it's part of the established setting. Wizards exist, though perhaps they are not common.
  
  
  The gnome sample PC, a thief/illusionist, claims to come from ''the far-off Misty Hills.'' He's got a reputation for ''stretching the truth into some rather odd configurations'' but he isn't known to be a liar.
  
  No guns are present in the module, which doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist in the world.
  Considering that Mordent is one of the older domains, some of the technology there may have been introduced or developed after the Mists descended.
  
  Tomatoes and pumpkins (New World/Columbian exchange plants) are grown in the region before it becomes part of the Demiplane.

Of course, that's all assuming one plays the module straight, with a ''real' world.

VIEW CONTENT:

It could be a dreamscape, one of the possibilities suggested for combing R 1 and R 2...

[Black Knight]

Based on the Ravenloft 2 module I'd say that Mordent is not on Earth, or at least not historical Earth. It's presented as part of an unnamed fantasy world with orcs, elves, halflings, etc in regions beyond Modentshire (orcs are in the module). The local religion is ''the High Faith.''

That's one I don't have. I'm paradoxically trying to retain everything I can while putting in a new system (no healing) and assuming domains cannot be made from scratch, but only stolen (i.e. no human souls can be created). I don't have that second module (or, yet, Ravenloft's first) but I imagine I'll be making myself compatible with it if ever I get my hands on a copy.

Other bits-

• The major city of Osterton, three days' travel north of Mordentshire, is the seat of the church or at least an important center for it.

Did not know that bit. Research time.

• No guns are present in the module, which doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist in the world.
• Considering that Mordent is one of the older domains, some of the technology there may have been introduced or developed after the Mists descended.
• Tomatoes and pumpkins (New World/Columbian exchange plants) are grown in the region before it becomes part of the Demiplane.

No guns is easy to explain - where guns are possible, my vague understanding of history suggests that they're not always really available. Expenses, special materials, bad conditions (isn't Mordent basically a New Orleans-like swamp)? I didn't know about the tomatoes thing, though after growing up British and watching American films (/'movies') I've developed a sub-conscious filter for American geography and Biology, allowing me to ignore random Native American spirits and skunks in films set anywhere from London to Dublin. Pumpkins will be added to the list.

[ewancummins]

Modentshire is a seaside town with rocky cliffs nearby (some orcs live in cliff caves).
There are also woods and moorlands nearby-- the House on Gryphon Hill rises out of the moors. Moors (being upland features) and sea cliffs indicate the area on the whole sits higher up than the low-lying bayou of the Mississippi's mouth. The description sounds much more like some parts of rural Northern or Western England than like Louisiana.

[ewancummins]

If you buy the module, make sure you get a complete copy. There's a large folded insert onw which is printed a poster-sized hex map of Mordentshire and the surrounding countryside in it, large maps of Heather House, player handout, dungeon maps, sample PCs (complete with capsule backgrounds), etc.

EDIT Some additional thoughts on guns...

Strahd/the Alchemist uses flash grenades in the module. Those might be gunpowder, or fulminates, or something along those lines.
It's quite possible that black powder exists in some form, but at the time of the adventure working firearms were not yet invented, except perhaps crude hand-gonnes (little cannon on a stick).

As you have probably noticed, guns do appear in Ravenloft's publishing history:

• 1E: Absent, fitting the general absence of even medieval gunpowder weapons in this edition (Dragon magazine offered rules, but the published modules and rulebooks pretty much ignored gunpowder, with rare exceptions generally having to do with planar travel and eccentric wizards and such stuff

)

• 2E: I don't think they are mentioned in the Black Box. They show up in some modules. Note that a matchlock arquebus does appear in the 1989 AD&D 2E PHB as an optional weapon. References in some sourcebooks seem to indicate that guns exist in Rvaenloft, as when Van Richen compares a sound to musket fire (I think that was in the child vampire article, but I might have that mixed up).

By late 2E, guns have become more prominent in several domains. Guns also crept into Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms products during the same publishing years.

• 3E: Now a normal feature, but of course the tech levels vary by domain and so guns aren't all over the place.

My idea: don't retcon it, roll with it. Guns were rare, pretty much unheard of, a few centuries back. Since the early years of the Demiplane, gunpowder tech has been spreading and improving over time. Wars being rare events in Ravenloft, there's less impetus for weapons development, so not everyone will rush to grab the new weapons.

[MichaelTumey]

Back in 2e, gunpowder was 'magic powder', while in Pathfinder gunpowder is standard black powder and not a magical substance at all, which makes far more sense and is easier to accomodate into any setting including Ravenloft. I could see both a gunsmith and/or an alchemist with knowledge on the production of black powder having been brought into Ravenloft at any given point and thus have introduced the Pathfinder version of guns, black powder and gun mechanics. Even without going Gothic Earth, I find it a bit unbelievable that many Ravenloftians dress somewhat in the style of 19th century (like the typical portrayal of Van Richten), yet be relegated to medieval only weapons. Guns in Ravenloft makes perfect sense to me, though I would restrict it to muskets and single shot pistols, and not go to rifles, revolvers and paper cartridges (being too modern). I'd even include some minimal number of cannon (semi and full culverin cannons as might be found on a ship of sail or a fortress wall). Both fit, thematically.

Back on topic, in every setting I've run there was always a 'common tongue', even in locations where only a few speak it. I've never really let language get in the way of running a campaign, unless language was a specific issue built-in as an obstacle to PC interactions - I've only done that once.

[Black Knight]

Interesting, Ewan. I really like the 3E book - lots of details about domains, so I'm going with that where there's any clashes. Guns are definitely a thing. I have to agree with Michael that Dementlieu always looked fairly modern, as did Mordent. Emerging guns might be a good thing though, even if they were always there. I'm currently going with the story that guns are available from the rich West only, other places view them as a foreign mystery, and very expensive. Only Lamordia produces those nifty flint-lock pistols which can be set and left, without being prepared or risking blowing up in your face, and can even be taken out in the rain with some light covering.

Back on topic, in every setting I've run there was always a 'common tongue', even in locations where only a few speak it. I've never really let language get in the way of running a campaign, unless language was a specific issue built-in as an obstacle to PC interactions - I've only done that once.

I'm thinking it could be a great feature. I have faint memories of semi-racist late-night TV where white guys wandered about semi-uncovered areas of Africa, eyeing the natives up suspiciously, guessing at what they wanted and trying to barter for food in return for weapons which they really didn't want anyone getting hold of. There was a kind of unease in the atmosphere of those old films which could probably be conveyed by purely describing Eastern Darkonians and Tepesatnis through the pitch of their conversation, their eye-movements and how many are gathered near the players. I think it could be very Ravenloft.