The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

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Five
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The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

With the recent discussion of paladins in another thread, I found my mind wandering off topic but still within the topic of paladins in general.

I have never worked with a paladin in any of my Ravenloft sessions. The reason for this is that within my current 'painting' they are exactly what I want of the PCs (net result). But at the same time this is also the reason why I never allowed them. In the context of Ravenloft (other settings I'll even allow multiple alignments for paladins to operate under), paladins are to me the epitome of what is good and virtuous, and as such they should be a source of aspiration for those possessing less pious morals but who are good and decent folk who, miraculously, strive to be even better people. Especially those people of action that pick up arms and venture forth to vanquish the personified evil(s) from their world. To allow a paladin (again, in the setting of Ravenloft) from the start (level 0-1) seems to me like I'd be allowing an end result, not a work in progress. So I ruled them out, but never entirely from the player's reach. Now I find myself thinking about fleshing out a parallel of sorts between paladins and the dark lords, and thus I came across the Path of Corruption. And with that are rules for redemption (a blurb really), but redemption is not the mirrored reflection that I had/have in mind.

Has anybody designed their, own "Path of Purity"? How did it turn out? What balance did you use to keep the Pious from overpowering the Dark Lords? I say this because let's face it: Ravenloft is evil, and the balance should always at least tip that way. The end result of a Path of Purity, to me, should empower Good, but should still be an odds against thing. Overpowering could only take the gothic out of Ravenloft. Total achievement could be the same, in that the stage six PC becomes an NPC, but balance is still a tricky thing to hold on to.

Or maybe the paladin's class abilities are the stages themselves, learned/granted step by step, mile by bloody mile. Detection of evil (cough) chaos, laying of hands, aura of protection, cure diseases, turn undead, none of these are abilities to scoff at, especially from a 'peasant' point of view. Stretched out like that, the paladin class abilities themselves, as holy gifts, could be a better fit (by keeping the balance tipped towards the Dark Lords) and paladinhood itself the pinnacle of purity...? Examples that come to mind now: To achieve the healing hands "perk", the PC has to help restore X amount of hit points to a wounded character. This includes the cleaning and wrapping of wounds, nursing that person back to health through food and drink, etc. Magical healing such as potions don't count towards this total. Or, to achieve the aura of protection "perk" the character has to take X amount of hit point damge in the defense of others. If the totals are high but not unachieveable, then ideally you'd end up with a hodgepodge paladin in your group but spread out amongst the PCs. Sort of like a group spirit paladin that manifests through their actions. Individuals create the whole. Something like that.

Or you could just allow a paladin. Ha.

Thoughts?
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by MichaelTumey »

Not to counter your discussion, but I find it strange that you seem to equate a paladin in power equal to a darklord (that may not be what you mean, but it sounds like you do.) A low level paladin has some nice perks, that get better as he levels up, but his powers aren't uber powers. Comparatively clerics are better than paladins at being paladins (at least in 3.5), as they can acquire martial weapon proficiency, having access to all divine spells, and having access to divine magic at first level. While their base attack bonus is not as good as fighter or paladin, in all other things, they are more divinely powerful (and if a good deity, more power than any paladin.) You don't deny clerics in your Ravenloft campaign do you? So why the apparent ban on paladins? Note: I do like playing paladins, but I've never considered the paladin an over-powered class, and certainly not overpowering for Ravenloft.

If the argument that Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Smite Evil helps a paladin bypass or more easily defeat evil things (than other classes), and that Ravenloft is the home for evil things; this gives the paladin an edge in Ravenloft versus a ranger or rogue. Sure that's true, but those powers are not automatic wins in encounters with evil beings. A paladin can just as easily be defeated/killed by any given monster, let alone a Domain Ruler, as any other class.

If acquiring the powers of good is a goal for your currently not especially good party, I see the value in pursuing a Path to Purity. However, I don't see not having such power at first level, nor the need to prevent a first level character to take up paladin as a chosen class. Paladins can certainly be effective in a Ravenloft campaign, but they are not a win against setting.

And if you think paladins are over-powered, consider that I play Pathfinder, and paladin got huge buffs in PF over 3.5 - they even have more anti-evil powers than 3.5 paladins. If you like the concept of fall from grace, no character class is better to do that with then starting from paladin and becoming a fallen paladin (blackguard in 3.5 or antipaladin in Pathfinder.) Paladins have too much flavor and opportunities for exciting adventures to not include the class.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

MichaelTumey wrote:you seem to equate a paladin in power equal to a darklord
No, the first thought was to elevate the paladin to slightly less than equal power to the darklords. The second thought was a spin-off of that thought as my thoughts went elsewhere mid-post.
You don't deny clerics in your Ravenloft campaign do you? So why the apparent ban on paladins? Note: I do like playing paladins, but I've never considered the paladin an over-powered class, and certainly not overpowering for Ravenloft.
In my campaign clerics are the only PC class that cast spells. Wizards (mages, warlocks, druids, witches, etc) are peripheral NPC plothooks, partly due to our literary influences, and therefore our style of play (within Ravenloft). Rangers don't use spells, their relationship to nature has more of a mundane yet naturally raw root. And paladins, well they're not in play. Magic exists (serving more of the malevolent/alien/superstitious roles than as a player mechanic), but it is esoteric and dangerous at best. Divine magic (blessings), while almost as rare (clerics are viewed almost as if in miraculous answer to the population's whispered prayers) is player-friendly for the simple fact that the emphasis it puts on the moral aspect of our Ravenloft benefits our goal: doing (or trying to do) the right thing when nobody else will. Being the underdogs. Sometimes faith is the only ally the PCs have. Grim, but intentionally so.

Anyway, back to the paladin.

Paladins were "banned", not from a game mechanic point of view (I have/had 15 levels of experience in 2E, and feel I understand them well enough to know that they aren't overpowered), but from a moral-spiritual point of view. Starting off at the top of the spiritual ladder is simply counterproductive to the need for the PCs to develop and maintain their spirituality/moral rightness. And that's not to say that the players were whipped into keeping alignment. Flocks sometimes stray, and its up to shepherds to get them back. Part of the fun that we have is the maintenance of player morals, the righting of wrongs (internal and external), etc. Another setting, and it's another set of views. Also, the fall from grace and the long, hard road out of hell is tremendously appealing. It's the road to that grace in the first place that I would rather be focused on and developed through roleplay. The fall and climb, to the player, would be that much more rewarding. I like to think.

My curiosity about the Path of Purity is just a community probe into the "other" (Good) side of Ravenloft. The rest (the paladin references or, what they represent) is me just thinking out loud.

My apologies, but the point of this thread was lost in my intro-babble, and is this: Has anybody designed their own "Path of Purity"? How did it turn out? What balance did you use to keep the Pious from overpowering the Dark Lords?
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by ewancummins »

In BECMI, Paladin is essentially a 'prestige class.' In order to become one a fighter has to reach 9Th level, be of Lawful alignment, and swear fealty to a Lawful church.

You might make paladin into a prestige class. If you are using 3E, there are rules for doing just that in the SRD hypertext.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/class ... lasses.htm


Other ways to handle the Path of Purity might include the virtue related feats from the 3E Ravenloft splatbooks and/or the exalted feats from the BoED.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Dion of the Fraternity »

I removed the D&D alignment system altogether in my last D&D Ravenloft game, and substituted the "Roads" offered by Vampire: Dark Ages. They're not "Paths" of "Purity/Corruption," but each step in each road sets a standard by which a person must live by. The highest rung is of course the "purest" so to speak.

Now in my L5R Ravenloft games we deal with Integrity and Taint.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

I had to look up "BECMI" and when I did I had to chuckle. I forgot about those boxed sets, and am now thinking about where they got put. Should be fun flipping through those! I wonder if the crayon is still in the box...? Heh.

Vampire: Dark Ages "Roads", huh? I'll have to look them up, before I decide on whether to 'prestige' the paladin class itself or prestige their class abilities.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by brilliantlight »

MichaelTumey wrote:Not to counter your discussion, but I find it strange that you seem to equate a paladin in power equal to a darklord (that may not be what you mean, but it sounds like you do.) A low level paladin has some nice perks, that get better as he levels up, but his powers aren't uber powers. Comparatively clerics are better than paladins at being paladins (at least in 3.5), as they can acquire martial weapon proficiency, having access to all divine spells, and having access to divine magic at first level. While their base attack bonus is not as good as fighter or paladin, in all other things, they are more divinely powerful (and if a good deity, more power than any paladin.) You don't deny clerics in your Ravenloft campaign do you? So why the apparent ban on paladins? Note: I do like playing paladins, but I've never considered the paladin an over-powered class, and certainly not overpowering for Ravenloft.

If the argument that Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Smite Evil helps a paladin bypass or more easily defeat evil things (than other classes), and that Ravenloft is the home for evil things; this gives the paladin an edge in Ravenloft versus a ranger or rogue. Sure that's true, but those powers are not automatic wins in encounters with evil beings. A paladin can just as easily be defeated/killed by any given monster, let alone a Domain Ruler, as any other class.

If acquiring the powers of good is a goal for your currently not especially good party, I see the value in pursuing a Path to Purity. However, I don't see not having such power at first level, nor the need to prevent a first level character to take up paladin as a chosen class. Paladins can certainly be effective in a Ravenloft campaign, but they are not a win against setting.

And if you think paladins are over-powered, consider that I play Pathfinder, and paladin got huge buffs in PF over 3.5 - they even have more anti-evil powers than 3.5 paladins. If you like the concept of fall from grace, no character class is better to do that with then starting from paladin and becoming a fallen paladin (blackguard in 3.5 or antipaladin in Pathfinder.) Paladins have too much flavor and opportunities for exciting adventures to not include the class.
Agreed, if anything is overpowered it's clerics. They can wear heavy armor, have decent weapons, spells, can turn undead and heal spontaneously. About the only thing that is more overpowered is very high lvl arcane casters.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

brilliantlight wrote:Agreed, if anything is overpowered it's clerics. They can wear heavy armor, have decent weapons, spells, can turn undead and heal spontaneously. About the only thing that is more overpowered is very high lvl arcane casters.
If I were to lift the cleric's description straight out of the PHB's pages and then applied it directly to my campaign, then I'd agree. However I don't tend to do that. To me the PHB describes the fully-geared version of any given class, the bigger picture if you will. Yet the in-game version usually falls short under more mundane circumstances.

For instance, the heavy armour is all fine and dandy and indeed makes the cleric a truly fearsome opponent (especially combined with a nasty weapon and an incalculable amount of divine magic at their disposal), yet the cleric, or any other character for that matter, should realistically not be prepared for such combat at all times. In my campaign the clerics don't wear heavy armour while helping the locals rebuild their homes from last night's torrential rains. Neither do they wear heavy armour while visiting the sick, the dying, or even while catching up on current events with the local priest. Certainly not when visting local dignitaries. Hell, even travelling in armour would be dictated by the perceived level of danger that the surrounding countryside poses. Not to mention walking around the inn, sleeping, checking out the marketplace, etc. And depending on the local's reception of the character, some of their magic will be depleted during these community services as well. Well before nightfall.

An axiom of mine (in RL especially) is: Day is where Evil grows, Night is where Evil shows. And given that Evil isn't stupid, or honourable, then of course they would exploit the goodness (POV weakness) that their nemesis shows. So with no armour, drained reserves of blessings (magic), the cleric is stripped down from the PHB/statistical version. Of course, not every day the cleric will be "jumped" like this. That's DM abuse as far as I'm concerned. But on an average day (again, in my RL), the average character won't be fully geared to face the horrors of their world. Is anybody ever fully ready to face their "destiny" at all times? Downtime/recuperation, research/fact gathering, doing good deeds, etc., all come before the actual confrontation. Ideally. Only when the PCs are expecting a confrontation will they be at their peak levels. At least, this is how I view things (in a typical sense).

Nothing's overpowered or underpowered until The DM says so, which I'm sure we all know.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

One thing you might consider doing, if you're uncomfortable with the idea that a person starts out with paladin abilities, is to hold a one-on-one session with your would-be paladin-player, before the campaign actually starts. This is a 'prequel' solo scenario, in which the PC is not yet a paladin, or even a PC class at all; you can temporarily stat them as a warrior, an expert, or even a commoner, whichever you prefer. Still a teenager, the PC finds him or herself in a situation where courage and faith, not game-stats, are what's required to save not only the PC's life, but that of an Innocent as well.

For instance, the PC might be traveling overland with a small caravan, which is camping out for the night. The cries of a child awaken them, and they emerge from their tent to find that all of the adults in the group have been killed by a vampire-spawn: one which even now is stalking the only other survivor, a terrified little girl. The PC can run, or try to rescue the child. A quick Spot check reveals that the caravan leader's body is lying near the fire, a holy symbol clutched in his hand; unfortunately, that hand has fallen into the campfire. Does the PC have the nerve to drag the corpse's arm from the flames, knowing the vampire-spawn will hear the sound of this? Can he/she summon the courage to grasp the symbol -- by now, surely very hot -- and fend off this terrible threat until morning, guarding the little girl through hours of dread? Does the young PC trust in the symbol's deity enough to risk this, knowing the caravan-leader's own faith wasn't enough to save him? If they take the chance, both they and the child survive, and the paladin-to-be's burn scars will vanish when their Lay-On-Hands ability manifests later in the campaign. If they flee, they can still become an adventurer, but not a paladin.

Playing out such mini-scenarios to establish background works well with any character class, but it's particularly good for paladins, whose class description virtually demands that some pivotal moment of crisis or clarity have set them on their difficult path.
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:One thing you might consider doing, if you're uncomfortable with the idea that a person starts out with paladin abilities, is to hold a one-on-one session with your would-be paladin-player, before the campaign actually starts. This is a 'prequel' solo scenario, in which the PC is not yet a paladin, or even a PC class at all; you can temporarily stat them as a warrior, an expert, or even a commoner, whichever you prefer. Still a teenager, the PC finds him or herself in a situation where courage and faith, not game-stats, are what's required to save not only the PC's life, but that of an Innocent as well.
If I had a new player who was adamant about playing a paladin and I never had an alternate system in place (similiar to, if not the ones mentioned above), then I'd certainly go with something similar to this. For the sake of keeping things fun for the player. It is a good tie-in concept, especially considering my concerns with starting paladins in Ravenloft.

I've done something similar when I first took over the role of DM (for Ravenloft), and I know firsthand that it can work. We had two new players to Ravenloft that wanted to dry fit characters into the setting. Fair enough. After some discussion I opted to take the campaign back to what was in fact my second idea for a campaign, but as it was decades before my primary timeline I needed to backstory some. Other players went all in, and we banged it out. In that case the two player's attachment to their PCs (my first clue that it worked) led to them playing the sons of in the original campaign, a suggestion we agreed on that would allow them to keep somewhat in character. Funny how two character sheets and blurb backgrounds can have such an impact, yeah?

That said, I'd rather not use that same storytool twice, but again, if it came down to making things fun for another player, then I most certainly would.

Until then...
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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Re: The Path of Corruption/The Path of Purity

Post by Five »

Thank you for the suggestions, by the way. I do appreciate them.
"A very piteous thing it was to see such a quantity of dead bodies, and such an outpouring of blood - that is, if they had not been enemies of the Christian faith."

- Jean Pierre Sarrasin, "The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville"
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