Which Edition to Run?

[Kryptonian]

Greetings everyone!

I'm new to these boards and have already found a ton of useful information, but I'd love some feedback on where I should go with the Ravenloft campaign I'm starting up. This is my quandry:

1) There seems to be a great deal more material available for 2nd Edition AD&D, but some people have a stigma about 2e and its rules (particularly THAC0).

2) Pathfinder seems like a great 3.5 alternative for the newer content, but there isn't nearly as much source material available for this edition.

Is running a 2nd edition game at this point in time a hopeless endeavor? I'd love to get some feedback about what you think the strengths and weaknesses are between 2e and a Pathfinder setting that uses the Mistfinder conversion. Personally, I think 2e is a bit more layered than anything in 3rd edition, but people seem more likely to play under Pathfinder rules than 2e rules.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I'm just going throw a pre-emptive moderation out here and warn everyone... Please feel free to give Kryptonia advice and opinions on which edition to use, but be mindful of edition-bashing! It will not be tolerated.
<moderator hat off>

With that said, I think you really need the input of your players to make this decision. With a little work, Ravenloft can fit in whatever edition you decide to use, but if the players aren't into that edition, you're going to be a lonely DM.

Personally, I DM a mostly 3.0 campaign, which has incorporated some 3.5 changes, and a few from Pathfinder. We may be migrating more to Pathfinder soon, if only because all the other campaigns we play are Pathfinder, and it would be nice to avoid confusion from switching between close-but-not-quite-the-same rulesets. But I've had no trouble adapting and running some of the great 2e adventures, like Feast of Goblyns, the Evil Eye, the Created, etc.

Lots of people around here play in 3e/PF and 4e. A few still use 2e or even 1e. Some have left D&D/d20 entirely for other systems like GURPS, Savage World, WoD, L5R, Little Fears, etc.

Depending on your timeframe, you might even consider waiting to see what 5e is like. You could jump in on the ground floor.

[BedrockBrendan]

I ran 2nd edition after ten or so years of not using it, last year. It worked brilliantly. We were all a little hesitant going in because everyone recalled THAC0 and the stigma has been there. The overall reaction was that 2e is a perfect fit for the setting. If you use NWPs that helps a lot and they support role play without intruding into it. Plus the wealth of Ravenloft material out there for 2E is a huge advantage.

[Lost Heretic]

THAC0 is arithmetic. I can't believe many gamers have problems with subtraction.


Anyway, just go with the edition you prefer. Each has system strengths and weaknesses, but any is viable for the setting. If you want some strengths and weaknesses, I've got a pro/con thread here: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... 19#p160119

[BedrockBrendan]

THAC0 is arithmetic. I can't believe many gamers have problems with subtraction.


Anyway, just go with the edition you prefer. Each has system strengths and weaknesses, but any is viable for the setting. If you want some strengths and weaknesses, I've got a pro/con thread here: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... 19#p160119

Besides the Ravenloft character sheet from Feast of Goblyns has a terrific THAC0 calculator on it. Most of the real math occurred prior to play for me.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

If it's between 3.5 and 2nd Ed, to me it's a no-brainer; 3.5. It's a more streamlined rules system than second edition and the greater flexibility in character classes and PrC make it a great improvement. However, something I've learnt recently is to let the players choose the rules. If a player is using a rules system they neither like nor want to play, then they are more likely to become disruptive. That said, you can't please all of the people all of the time, so go with a majority.

[ewancummins]

Greetings everyone!

I'm new to these boards and have already found a ton of useful information, but I'd love some feedback on where I should go with the Ravenloft campaign I'm starting up. This is my quandry:

1) There seems to be a great deal more material available for 2nd Edition AD&D, but some people have a stigma about 2e and its rules (particularly THAC0).

2) Pathfinder seems like a great 3.5 alternative for the newer content, but there isn't nearly as much source material available for this edition.

Is running a 2nd edition game at this point in time a hopeless endeavor? I'd love to get some feedback about what you think the strengths and weaknesses are between 2e and a Pathfinder setting that uses the Mistfinder conversion. Personally, I think 2e is a bit more layered than anything in 3rd edition, but people seem more likely to play under Pathfinder rules than 2e rules.

THAC0 is a non-issue. If you don't like subtracting, it's ridiculously easy to just flip the numbers around and use positive AC. Nothing to it. I've never understood why anyone had a problem with that. It's the same thing that 3E does with AC. Lots of guys were doing it years before 3E came out.

Check out-
Out of Character: Simplifying THAC0 and Armor Class" Peter Adkison Dragon magazine 249(24)


My advice is to go with the system you know best, and with which you are most comfortable. It sounds as if you are leaning towards 2E, but open to either. I commend you on your flexibility.


Are you running this online, here on FoS? There are plenty of PF fans here- and also plenty of guys who'd like to play some AD&D 2E. I know I would dig on some AD&D 2E.

[steveflam]

Greetings everyone!

I'm new to these boards and have already found a ton of useful information, but I'd love some feedback on where I should go with the Ravenloft campaign I'm starting up. This is my quandry:

1) There seems to be a great deal more material available for 2nd Edition AD&D, but some people have a stigma about 2e and its rules (particularly THAC0).

2) Pathfinder seems like a great 3.5 alternative for the newer content, but there isn't nearly as much source material available for this edition.

Is running a 2nd edition game at this point in time a hopeless endeavor? I'd love to get some feedback about what you think the strengths and weaknesses are between 2e and a Pathfinder setting that uses the Mistfinder conversion. Personally, I think 2e is a bit more layered than anything in 3rd edition, but people seem more likely to play under Pathfinder rules than 2e rules.

THAC0 is a non-issue. If you don't like subtracting, it's ridiculously easy to just flip the numbers around and use positive AC. Nothing to it. I've never understood why anyone had a problem with that. It's the same thing that 3E does with AC. Lots of guys were doing it years before 3E came out.

Check out Peter Adkinson's Rethinking THAC0 article in Dragon magazine.


My advice is to go with the system you know best, and with which you are most comfortable. It sounds as if you are leaning towards 2E, but open to either. I commend you on your flexibility.


Are you running this online, here on FoS? There are plenty of PF fans here- and also plenty of guys who'd like to play some AD&D 2E. I know I would dig on some AD&D 2E.

Ditto on the 2E.

[ewancummins]

If you don't like THAC0, do this:
(the mechanical part of the short article)

Attack Value= 21- THAC0

Defense Value = 21 - AC

Thus, a character with a 19 THAC0 has a an ATV (attack value) of 2. Add any bonuses from STR, magic, etc.

This guy is trying to hit a monster with AC 5. Let's do the monster's DFV (defense value).

21-5 =16


The attacking PC rolls a D20 to attack, just as usual. He adds his ATV and any adjustments. If that total matches or beats the target's DFV, he hits. (Exactly as in 3E)

Voila, positive AC and no subtraction required in play. It's not a coincidence that Adkison wrote the article. This is the WotC overlord we're talking about. The article was published in July of 1998. 3E came out in 2000.

Note that the conversion to ATV and DFV can be done before any fights. Just list those figures in your notes. You do not need to do it during fights- it's already done. Character sheets have DFV and ATV listed. It's no different than base attack and AC in 3E.The players will have zero trouble. If they can't handle the math, they can't handle 3E, which works the same way- roll a D20 and match or beat a target number.

[steveflam]

Kryptonian, if you want to run a 2E game here. ..... let us know. That would be the bomb, my friend.

[Kryptonian]

Thank you all so much for the responses! I think I am going to with a 2nd Edition game if I can get enough people interested in playing. Is there a starter module that any of you can recommend? I'd like to do a one-off to get people acquainted with the setting and get their characters rolling, but I haven't come across anything designed for Level 1 characters. I'd really appreciate a point in the right direction on this one.

I do plan to run the game live with players in my local town. I don't have much experience running games online and, quite frankly, I need some time to sit down with 2e and re-acquaint myself to the DM aspects of the game. I've been in post 3.0 so long that I'm sure there's a lot I've forgotten. Once I get familiar with the system and the setting, however, I'm going to put some serious thought into running a game online. So at this point, it's a "wait and see" thing for me, but I'm not totally against the idea.

[ewancummins]

Thank you all so much for the responses! I think I am going to with a 2nd Edition game if I can get enough people interested in playing. Is there a starter module that any of you can recommend? I'd like to do a one-off to get people acquainted with the setting and get their characters rolling, but I haven't come across anything designed for Level 1 characters. I'd really appreciate a point in the right direction on this one.

I do plan to run the game live with players in my local town. I don't have much experience running games online and, quite frankly, I need some time to sit down with 2e and re-acquaint myself to the DM aspects of the game. I've been in post 3.0 so long that I'm sure there's a lot I've forgotten. Once I get familiar with the system and the setting, however, I'm going to put some serious thought into running a game online. So at this point, it's a "wait and see" thing for me, but I'm not totally against the idea.

Night of the Walking Dead is a module for 4- 6 characters of levels 1-3. It's probably a good starter for Ravenloft.

If you want to seperate it from the Grand Conjunction meta-plot, that's easy to do.

[Kryptonian]

Grand Conjunction actually sounds like a fun idea. Does anyone know where I can find the WotC re-vamp PDFs that they did of the adventure? I have Night of the Walking Dead and Touch of Death, but I can't seem to track down the others and it looks like they've pulled them down from the official site.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Grand Conjunction actually sounds like a fun idea. Does anyone know where I can find the WotC re-vamp PDFs that they did of the adventure? I have Night of the Walking Dead and Touch of Death, but I can't seem to track down the others and it looks like they've pulled them down from the official site.

They didn't re-vamp them at all, as far as I know. They just scanned the modules and put them up as PDFs. But yeah, there's no legal way to get them anymore, and the links on the WotC website are dead. I put in an email to them about it but never heard back. Maybe if enough people write in, they will put them back up, so I encourage anyone interested to do so.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Grand Conjunction actually sounds like a fun idea. Does anyone know where I can find the WotC re-vamp PDFs that they did of the adventure? I have Night of the Walking Dead and Touch of Death, but I can't seem to track down the others and it looks like they've pulled them down from the official site.

They didn't re-vamp them at all, as far as I know. They just scanned the modules and put them up as PDFs. But yeah, there's no legal way to get them anymore, and the links on the WotC website are dead. I put in an email to them about it but never heard back. Maybe if enough people write in, they will put them back up, so I encourage anyone interested to do so.

The Grand Conjunction modules, while it's sad they're gone, were not very good. The adventures were disjointed at best, nonsensical at worst. The designers of each module didn't communicate and really went their own ways. The result was a muddled jumble with the feeling that any real connections to Hyskosa's Hexad were tacked on at the last minute.

Oh, and going by 2e canon, the reason the Conjunction collapsed wasn't simply "Azalin's meddling" but, more specifically, his causing the fifth and sixth signs to occur out of order. I find that description much more interesting and telling of how deeply the lich-king involved himself to the point that he shot himself in the foot, so to speak. His own ego once again reinforces his curse as darklord.