I was just curious to get some feed back of how many people allow the pistol's and rifles into their game. The damage code isn't that huge of a difference and the pistol's range is very low to make it that much of a difference i think. I can feel more of the flavor of this in Ravenloft than I can in my other DnD campaign so i'm going to allow it into my game i think, just wondering if anyone can think of any draw backs.
In Barovia i'm sure such a thing is only rumored or owned by the rich burgomeister's.
Also can there be +2 pistols and the like just like any weapon? o.O' (just thought of that) That makes it sound eh, i'll probably just home brew bullets that might have different affects against creatures of the night. We all know the good ol' silver bullet no?
Well I'm currently building a Gothic Old West adventure using the Pathfinder RPG ruleset - I prefer the Pathfinder version of gun rules to exploding dice and other past editions of D&D guns. In Pathfinder, at the initial range increment for guns, armor = nothing (except for arcane enhancement bonuses), then with a feat the next range increment equally offers no protection whatsoever beyond arcane deflection bonus. Bullets pass-through armor like it's cloth. Most pistols/revolvers do 1d8 damage with a 20' initial range increment, and rifles do 1d10 damage in 80' initial range increment. Beyond these two range increments armor works as normal.
I had been looking at an Elizabethan era adventure and setting which featured muskets and single shot pistols, which in my mind easily fits the Gothic Earth feel - so yes, I think firearms would be a fine addition to any appropriate timeline for a Ravenloft adventure.
Pathfinder has somewhat over the top rules for Gunslingers, and I've just designed a Shootist alternate class for the Magus (the wizard/weapon master mix class). Since this is Pathfinder based on 3x rules and not 1e or 2e, it's probably not helpful but - here's my shootist class writeup:
Shootist (magus alternate class)
The shootist blends mystical arcane powers and masterful prowess with a weapon much like his kin the magus, however the shootist uses a firearm as his chosen weapon and a deck of cards as his spellbook. While he can use all simple and martial weapons, including firearms, pistols or revolvers, revolvers are his preferred weapon.
Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8. Starting Wealth: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp) Class skills
The shootist’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the shootist.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A shootist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and all firearms. A shootist is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a shootist wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass shootist still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells
A shootist casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list. A shootist must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the shootist must have an Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a shootist’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shootists’s Charisma modifier.
A shootist can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given for the standard magus class. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A shootist may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spell deck. While studying, the magus decides which spells to prepare.
Cantrips: A magus can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted with Magus under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Spell Decks: Instead of a spellbook, a shootist uses a spell deck that resembles an ornate playing card deck with cryptic symbols and formula hidden in the numbers, icons and border on each card's face.
A shootist must study his spell deck each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spell deck except for read magic, which all shootists can prepare from memory. A shootist begins play with a spell deck containing all 0-level magus spells plus three 1st-level magus spells of his choice. The shootist also selects a number of additional 1st-level magus spells equal to his Charisma modifier to add to his spell deck. At each new shootist level, he gains two new magus spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new shootist level) for his spell deck. At any time, a shootist can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own.
A shootist can learn spells from a wizard’s spellbook, just as a wizard can from a shootist’s spell deck. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal. An alchemist can learn formulae from a shootist’s spell deck, if the spells are also on the alchemist spell list. A shootist cannot learn spells from an alchemist.
Arcane Pool (Su) – At 1st level, the shootist gains a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. At 1st level this arcane pool has a number of points equal to ½ his shootist level plus his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
The pool refreshes once per day when the shootist prepares his spells. A shootist can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves. A shootist can also expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to gain deadeye or quick clear abilities (see below)
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: brilliant, flaming, flaming burst, frost, ghost touch, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, or speed.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the shootist.
A shootist can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
Deadeye (Su): At 1st level, the shootist can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this costs 1 arcane point per range increment beyond the first. The shootist still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
Quick Clear (Su): At 1st level, as a standard action, the shootist can remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. The shootist must have at least 1 arcane point to perform this action. Alternatively, if the shootist spends 1 arcane point to perform this action, she can perform quick clear as a move-equivalent action instead of a standard action.
Spell Combat (Ex) – At 1st level, a shootist learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the shootist must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Charisma bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A shootist can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Magus Arcana
As he gains levels, a shootist learns arcane secrets tailored to his specific way of blending martial puissance and magical skill. Starting at 3rd level, a shootist gains one magus arcana. He gains an additional magus arcana for every three levels of shootist attained after 3rd level. Unless specifically noted in a magus arcana’s description, a shootist cannot select a particular magus arcana more than once. Magus arcana that affect spells can only be used to modify spells from the magus spell list unless otherwise noted.
Ranged Spellstrike (Su) – at 2nd level a shootist can use ranged spellstrike to cast a single target touch attack range spell and deliver it through any gun attack. Even if the spell normally has multiple targets, only a single missile, ray or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level whenever a shootist using a multiple target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full round action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects used in the round the spell is cast are lost. This replaces spellstrike.
Quickfire (Ex) – At 4th level a shootist gains the ability to draw and fire his firearm as a standard action. This ability replaces spell recall.
Bonus Feats – At 5th level, and every six levels thereafter, a shootist gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat, item creation, or metamagic feats. He must meet the prerequisites for these feats as normal.
Dual Pistols (Ex) – At 7th level, the shootist learns how to use his magical abilities to effectively blend two one-handed firearms fighting and casting spells. When holding two one-handed firearms in separate hands, the shootist may spend a shootist pool point as a swift action to count one of his hands (shootist's choice) as free for the purposes of casting spells and delivering touch attacks. The shootist may also use this hand to cast spells for the spell combat class ability (but then cannot fire the firearm the hand is holding as a part of spell combat). This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to the shootist's Charisma modifier. This ability replaces the medium armor ability..
Knowledge Pool (Su) – At 7th level, when a shootist prepares his magus spells, he can decide to expend 1 or more points from his arcane pool, up to his Charisma bonus. For each point he expends, he can treat any one spell from the magus spell list as if it were in his spell deck and can prepare that spell as normal that day. If he does not cast spells prepared in this way before the next time he prepares spells, he loses those spells. He can also cast spells added in this way using his spell recall ability, but only until he prepares spells again.
Improved Spell Combat (Su) – At 8th level, the shootist’s ability to cast spells and make range attacks improves. When using the spell combat ability, the shootist receives a +2 circumstance bonus on concentration checks, in addition to any bonus granted by taking an additional penalty on the attack roll.
Fighter Training (Ex) – Starting at 10th level, a shootist counts 1/2 his total magus level as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats. If he has levels in fighter, these levels stack.
Swerve Bullet (Su) – At 11th level, the shootist gains the ability to alter the trajectory of bullet fired at him by sheer force of will, working as deflect arrow feat, but with magic instead of your hand. This ability replaces improved spell recall.
Lightening Reload (Ex) – At 13th level, as long as the shootist has at least 1 arcane point left in his pool, he can reload a single barrel or chamber of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If he has the rapid reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), he can reload a single barrel or chamber as a free action. Further more using this ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces heavy armor.
Greater Spell Combat (Su) – Starting at 14th level, a shootist gains the ability to seamlessly cast spells and make ranged attacks. Whenever he uses the spell combat ability, his concentration check bonus equals double the amount of the attack penalty taken..
Counterstrike (Ex) – At 16th level, whenever an enemy within reach of the shootist successfully casts a spell defensively, that enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the shootist after the spell is complete. This attack of opportunity cannot disrupt the spell.
Greater Spell Access (Su) – at 19th level, a shootist gains access to an expanded spell list. He learns and places 14 spells from the Bard spell list into his spell deck as magus spells of their bard level. He gains two of each of the spells from the Bard list, not on the magus spell list: 0 level, 1st level, 2nd level, 3rd level, 4th level, 5th level and 6th level.
He can ignore the somatic components of these spells, casting them without normal chance of failure.
True Shootist (Su) – At 20th level, the shootist becomes a master of spells and combat. Whenever he uses his spell combat ability, he does not need to make a concentration check to cast the spell defensively. Whenever the shootist uses spell combat and his spell targets the same creature as his melee attacks, he can choose to either increase the DC to resist the spell by +2, grant himself a +2 circumstance bonus on any checks made to overcome spell resistance, or grant himself a +2 circumstance bonus on all attack rolls made against the target during his turn.
Suggested Magus Arcana
Arcane Accuracy, Bane Blade, Close Range, Critical Strike, and Ghost Blade. Note: Bane Blade and Ghost Blade can be applied to firearms for the shootist.
I have advanced guns in my games that are treated much like another type of magic item. Pepperbox pistols and rifles, revolvers, magical ammunition, the works. I also use the Pathfinder system for firearms.
MichaelTumey wrote:Pathfinder has somewhat over the top rules for Gunslingers,
Really? Which ones? One of the players in Kara's Daughters is converting from pistoleer to gunslinger, and I'd like to be prepared for the consequences!
BTW, interesting alternate class--do you want feedback on it? Would you like it indexed in the PEACH market?
MichaelTumey wrote:Pathfinder has somewhat over the top rules for Gunslingers,
Really? Which ones? One of the players in Kara's Daughters is converting from pistoleer to gunslinger, and I'd like to be prepared for the consequences!
BTW, interesting alternate class--do you want feedback on it? Would you like it indexed in the PEACH market?
Both would be welcomed! Yes. If you'd prefer I could start a new thread containg this alternate class build on it's own and out of Zilfer's thread to better link to PEACH market - I'll do that.
As for the abilities of the gunslinger, I don't find any that are over-the-top except perhaps Evasive (you don't even have to spend the point?!) but then I have not seen any of them in action yet, so I'm probably missing something. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Really that comment was meant as Pathfinder is a bit higher powered than 1e/2e, and even slightly more powered than 3x. So Zilfer, I assume is looking at 2e rules vs. Pathfinder, and I wanted to clarify that it might be a difficult conversion to downgrade a PF class vs. a 2e class.
Compared to other PF classes, the gunslinger is balanced fine. I don't think it would be a problem in your PF Ravenloft game.
I'll go ahead and start a new thread for the Shootist (magus alternate class) in the same forum my haunts are listed (I'm forgetting the name of that forum while writing this...)
I waffled a bit on how to keep the technology restricted from the primitive domains. I eventually decided to use the good old 'smopkepowder' solution of AD&D 2E; gunpowder is a semi-magical substance. In 3E terms, it is an alchemical item, meaning that the alchemy skill is required to make it. As per the SRD, that means only spellcasters can make it. I allow even NPCs with cantrips to be alchemists. Spellcasters tend to be less common in the primitive domains, or else such domains lack the infrastrucure to make lots of powder.
Sulfur deposits are not evenly distributed. Some domains have a ready supply, others do not.
Guns are simple or martial weapons for PCs from more advanced domains. They have better critical potential than other ranged weapons, but are not quick to load.
Prices for guns are much lower than the listed prices (DMG or RLPH), in advanced domains/near centers of gunmaking.
I don't use anything more advanced than the early 1700s, as a general rule.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
I do not care for dnd on a mechanical level, so when I run ravenloft I tend to go to use BRP which fits ravenloft IMO much much better, I have thought of using savage worlds for ravenloft but I have yet to try it out.
but anyways I use guns. I think that they fit ravenloft well, and I view them as alchemical, ie mundane for the most part. However I do allow magical additons to guns if people are creative. ie making a silencer by having the silence spell added to a gun. I try to stick to 1700 tech and lower though for guns.
of course if you are going to have guns you must have a silver bullets.
BRP rocks.
I've given some thought to using OpenQuest in a future Ravenloft campaign.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
Warning: GURPS post. Mathematics involved. Do not inhale!
I use guns, but I go for a very specific balance.
Guns in my Gothic horror games are pretty much a one-shot attempt to inflict massive damage. You'll lose all surprise, you'll give away your location, and you'll quite likely foul the air with smoke and reduce your own visibility. But the payoff is you get one attack that may blow your opponent clean away. Firearms fall typically into one of three categories:
1. Rifles/muskets: long arms that fire a single damaging shot of medium caliber at high speeds with a large propellant charge behind them. These take a long time to reload, so they're best used at long range with careful aim to ensure your first shot is good and eliminates the target. Cannot be concealed, rapid fire is impossible.
2. Pistols: one-handed weapons that fire a single shot. The ammunition may be light enough that multiple-shot magazines (e.g. revolvers) are feasible. These do much lower damage owing to a much lower muzzle velocity, which in part owes to a shorter barrel and lighter propellant charge. Carry these if you expect short-to-medium range combat where rapid fire or concealability is important.
3. Shotguns: long arms that fire cartridges of small light pellets with a large propellant charge behind them. The pellets spread, making accurate long-distance fire impossible. Also, because each pellet is individually light, armor is very effective at stopping the attack. Best used at short range against unarmored human combatants (to ensure more than one pellet hits), or at medium range against smaller animal or game targets (where a single pellet is enough to kill or cripple the target). Cannot be concealed, rapid fire is impossible.
Damage is very important - a firearm needs to do huge amounts of damage compared against muscle-powered ranged weapons (e.g. bows, slings, etc.) for it to be worthwhile, and this is in keeping with the actual energy physics of firearms. A single bullet should be something that might kill somebody outright, and if it doesn't then it leaves them seriously wounded and at risk of imminent death through blood loss or somewhat delayed death through infection or organ failure.
Guns in the late Enlightenment and early Industrial eras are cumbersome, loud, slow to reload, and above all expensive. Yet they were brutally effective. One shot from any long arm (rifle or shotgun) is usually enough to completely incapacitate a limb if it hits the arm or leg, or it's enough to cause grievous injury with a risk of death on a torso hit. A head hit is almost guaranteed death or comatose injury at best.
I'm using a different ruleset (GURPS 4th Ed), but basically speaking most humans in my games have 10 HP, and some exceptional examples may have up to 13 HP. Once HP falls below 0, PC must make a Health check each turn or fall unconscious. Each full multiple of negative HP means they're rolling against their Health to stay alive. Once a character's HP are at negative 5xHP, they're dead - no rolls will help. Bleeding damage comes to 1 HP per full minute, meaning that most people will bleed to death within an hour at most of any injury that incapacitates them.
To give a sense of scale, armor of that era rarely protects greater than DR 4, but a really thick suit of heavy plate armor might give DR 7 over the torso.
By contrast, a musket shot (4d6, x1.5 after armor DR) will typically score 14 damage, of which 7 points are stopped by the plate armor DR, and inflict an injury of 10 or 11 HP on the victim. This is enough to bring a normal person to 0 HP, which means they're making health rolls each round just to stay conscious. Somebody with a very high number of hit points for a human being (like Vlad Drakov) might have 13 HP, so this would grievously wound him and he'd be in serious trouble. Two minutes of bleeding damage will put him in danger of losing consciousness from a single musket hit through plate mail. If the shot hit him in the head, damage modifier is a further x2, meaning he would be unconscious and rolling health to stay alive.
A revolver does on average 6 points of damage (2d6-1), meaning platemail would stop it maybe half the time or better, but any penetrating damage will usually be only a point or two of injury. Against an unarmored person, though, it only takes two bullets to the chest to threaten unconsciousness, or a single shot to the head (double damage).
A double barrelled shotgun fires on average nine lead pellets, each doing about 5 or 6 points of damage (1d+2 x9 pellets). At longer ranges, it's hard to hit with more than a few pellets, but up close the shotgun could hit with all nine pellets, for 45 to 54 points of damage total. In GURPS terms, that's enough to drop most average people to -44 HP, which means they'll either drop dead immediately or (if they make a health check) they'll still bleed to death within six minutes if left untended. Even a very fit soldier (13 HP) would be rolling to stay alive from such a hit. Note that armor is very effective against shotgun pellets - the DR from armor is applied against each pellet individually, meaning platemail would stop most shotgun blasts completely! Discharging both barrels of a double-barreled shotgun at once means 18 pellets of 5 or 6 damage each, or 90 to 108 HP damage if you're very close to your target. This is enough to kill any unarmored human instantly (a very fit soldier with 13 HP still dies instantly if he takes 78 HP damage) and it may even take the victim past the -10xHP limit where their body is useless for resurrection. It will also probably dislocate the shoulder of anybody foolish enough to try this in a realistic game setting!
Note that this is heavily contingent on a game system where people's HP are typically around 10, with no deviation of greater than +/-3. If you're playing in a system where a single PC could go from 13 HP at the start of his career to triple digits by the end of it, you're likely going to need to scale firearm damage as a percentage of HP if you want to keep the threat of gunfire realistic.
Wow i think that's the most responces i've gotten while not looking. This site IS ALIVE!!!! XD
Anyways, i see most people agree with my assessment of Ravenloft and guns fitting the atmosphere. What Humanbeing said there makes me wonder if i should up the damage a bit more, though I don't want to make them too powerful either so I guess i'll have to think about it and make the ruling when I get in game and someone finally shoots a firearm.
Thanks for all the responces!
P.S. I currently play 3.5 and i'm not sure i have the money to go looking into pathfinder even though i've heard it's nick named "3.75"
Ron's right: you can't afford NOT to check out Pathfinder, at that price! The site I prefer is http://www.d20pfsrd.com/. Between the two of them, you need not waif for next Christmas to run a Pathfinder game!
Re: PF as 3.75, I prefer to think of Pathfinder as "What 4.0 ought to have been."
As far as giving guns the extra oomph, I recommend Pathfinder's rule that within the first range increment, it ignores all armor bonuses--it's basically a ranged touch attack.
The site I prefer is http://www.d20pfsrd.com/. Between the two of them, you need not waif for next Christmas to run a Pathfinder game!