Wheel of Time Book 11 (and other books)

[alhoon]

Well, it's not bad, it's just... different. Brandon Sanderson said from the beginning that he won't try to immitate Jordan's way of writting but he would tell the whole story Jordan has told his relatives without changing the events. I agree with that approach.

The plot and the events seem "Jordan-made".
On the other hand, the characters seem a bit different. Something seems odd with X character's behavior here or Y character's way of speaking there. Nothing dramatic, but it's clear the book isn't written by the same person.

Is it better or worse? I can't say yet, I'm at page 55.

PS. No spoilers please.
PS2 off topic: Just noticed. I'm in the Frat for 7 years now. I would swear it feels something like 3-4. Good work for the Frat to keep that site going for so long.

[alhoon]

Now, something that bothers me.
Sanderson seems to be confusing armies of hundred thousand men with skirmish parties.

I mean, when an army of 100K ambushes and traps an army of 300K, that's a terrible battle that will propably go down in history as one of the world's biggest battles and the world's best trap. It's not easy to trick an army of 300K and have them ambush with an army of 100K. Sure, in Tannenburg, WW1 the Germans did it, but it was a forest and it's considered one of the most ambitious tricks in history.
Not to mention the size of battlefield such a battle would need, or the provisions each army would need to feed.

Without giving spoilers, I can't say more but let's just say that Brandon seems to miss these points.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Man, it's killing me that I haven't read this yet. I was waiting for paperback, and now I'm waiting for amazon to have a decent discount. (2 cents? really, Amazon?) I finally got a 50% coupon from borders, then I went to the store with my kids and used the coupon on coloring books (thinking that amazon would be close, with their usual 30-40% off). Then I got another coupon and went back to Borders, only to see that they'd sold out! ARGH!


Anyway, since I haven't read it, I don't know the context of this battle you speak of, but these books are supposed to be leading the THE LAST BATTLE, so it stands to reason that there would be some pretty impressive battles, no?

[alhoon]

Up to page 183 so far. It's good.
A must read IMO. Better than books 7,8,10. So far about the quality of books 6,9,11.
The story progresses quite fast BTW.

About the battles: Yes. There should be some impressive battles. Not "skirmishes" with Hundreds of thousands of soldiers. The book seems to be like WW2 mentality. Hundreds of thousands soldiers here, hundreds of thousands soldiers there...
For a Medevial setting, these numbers are extreme. There's no way nations could rise, feed and equip hundreds of thousands totalling to armies of millions of soldiers.
I thought the whole continent (Aiel Waste aside) had about 10-15 million people. It seems I was waaaaay off.

It's not that every farmer has joined the army, although in the prologue it makes clear that many did, forging spears or swords from their farmtools. It's that there were too many people around it seems. I would say that the continent holds at least 50 million people from what I've read. Quite like Europe of 1300s.

However: It seems that the theme of the book (Gathering storm should have been a hint... ) is "Extreme mobilization for the big finalle". So I'm getting used to mentions of "small armies" that are "barely" 50K people, when in book 4-5 10K soldiers were considered a force.

Advice:
Since it's been a looong time from book 11, before reading book 12, refamiliarize yourself with the plot and the characters. What I did was to read the synopsis of the previous books from wikipedia.
I also used wikipedia as I was reading the first 100 pages or so, checking the various characters to refresh my memory... but I hit spoilers on the book from there. So I suggest you check them carefully.

EDIT: In a later chapter of the book some bit of the old Jordan resurface. Without giving spoilers, let me just say that there is mention to events of the first book, following Jordan's tradition to follow up things from waaaaaaaay back. Gives a sense of continuity. There are also other references to waaaaayyy past books, and attempts to continue such storylines or keep them in the reader's mind. But unlike Jordan some of them are given a few paragraphs that don't derail a lot from the plot.

In light of this, I wonder if Brandon received some chapters from Jordan notes and just wrote them without changing anything substancial. My understanding from the foreword is that he has read the notes and heard the story and then proceeded to write it. But a few chapters and passages seem too "Jordan" for coincidence.
Sure, he certainly wrote those chapters himself, but I think he may just expressed some parts with is own words instead of writting them, adding and changing things.


The book chapter names suggest major changes and progress. I can't stop reading.
Names aside, the story is captivating. Nothing new here. I always liked WoT books.

[alhoon]

Teasers:
- Dark one's touch on the world is more pronounced than ever. Every few pages something unatural will happen because of this. A few of this instances are not just thematic, but affect the plot!
- We learn a possible reason on why that absentminded scholar was torn limb for limb in Cairhien.
- A viewing of Min about Rand that is quite clear in it's meaning for the reader.
- By page 250, most of the main characters storylines (except one) have progressed. A lot.
- Judging by the chapter names, the missing main character's storyline progresses a lot.
- We're given subtle clues on the series Jordan mentioned he has been thinking for after the wheel of time ends. The one about the Seanchan a few years after the Last Battle. (I don't think anyone knows enough about that story, so it'll never been told )
- Revelations about members the Black Ajah. Have a pillow nearby because your jaw will hit the floor.
- Lews Therin mentions out of the blue one of the problems he faced when trying to seal the Dark One that caused the seal to be not-absolute = he managed to weaken it after 3000 years.
- Semiraghe is shown to be a very good canditate for darklordship. The woman is plain unsettling. There's a reason people were opening their veins with their teeth to make a suicide when captured by Semirhage.
- Tuon's thoughts again. She can't bare the superstisions on this side of the ocean about trollocs and Mydraal and she also can't understand how they can be ignorant about omens and doves flying this way or that.

PS. Either the chapter names contain a huge spoiler or they are misleading.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

In light of this, I wonder if Brandon received some chapters from Jordan notes and just wrote them without changing anything substancial. My understanding from the foreword is that he has read the notes and heard the story and then proceeded to write it. But a few chapters and passages seem too "Jordan" for coincidence.
Sure, he certainly wrote those chapters himself, but I think he may just expressed some parts with is own words instead of writting them, adding and changing things.

From reading Sanderson's blog, I'm pretty sure there were large chunks of text that Jordan left behind, as part of his "outline." Specifically, we know that the very final chapter of the series was written in full by Jordan long ago, and Sanderson plans not to change it all.

[alhoon]

Specifically, we know that the very final chapter of the series was written in full by Jordan long ago, and Sanderson plans not to change it all.

Yeah, he says so in the foreword.
About the "large chunks of text" though, they are surely heavily edited. Jordan's wife was usually making the first edit of the draft and Jordan corrected it, then the company's editors etc. In my father's books, they have made 3 edits in total before publication and I think I remember Jordan also said something similar.
So, except of the last chapter that will be (just a bit edited) Jordan, I think that the parts of text Brandon mentions are from Jordan would have been edited a lot, so Brandon would have made the changes that would be required from Jordan.

Still there are some parts of the book that seem more "Jordanish" than others in the way the characters act.

To be sincere, I will be disappointed if the final chapter is Tarmon Gaidon. It's something too large and tense to finish the book there. Either Brandon should provide a couple of chapters after that, showing us what everyone did after the dust started to settle or he should provide a 150 pages epilogue. Which is the same.

Still, I'll provide something from book 12:
"I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

So I presume from that, that it won't be a single showdown of the Dragon + allies vs Shadow, like the battle of Dumani Wells or Shadar Logoth, with millions of shadowspawn fighting millions of Rand's allies as he tries to pick a fight with the Dark One.
It will sure have such battles here and there, but I think it's not that alone.

Perhaps something similar to what the old Dragon did? Rand + some powerful channelers + their allies to protect them as they try to lock down the Dark one? Like the battle of Shadar Logoth?
There have been many hints on who will be there. I remember one from book 8.

Go buy the book so we can discuss it!

[alhoon]

I found one more thing (it's a short list) that bothers me somewhat:

Some descriptions are increadibly long for their usefulness.
I mean, the book could have been 10% less (that's 80 pages smaller) and would be more enjoyable.
OK, Egwene cleans a large fireplace. 1 1/2 pages dedicated to how dirty the fireplace is and how it looks from the inside and outside?

PS. Semirhage rocks! She would have made an ideal darklord.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I found one more thing (it's a short list) that bothers me somewhat:

Some descriptions are increadibly long for their usefulness.
I mean, the book could have been 10% less (that's 80 pages smaller)

You've been been reading this series for 12 books and now and this still bothers you? Jordan loved describing minute details of dresses and architecture. If this book continue that tradition, it fits right in.

[alhoon]

I said a bit, didn't I?
Also there's a difference between describing a palace and architecture and describing a fireplace... or an Aes Sedai dress, something Jordan loved to do as you said for unfathomed reasons.
Palace gives you a feeling of the immensity of the world, the people living in it and what they like and that it's a world "lived in" and well thought. Dresses and fireplaces... well, I don't know. Certainly Jordan didn't do it to fill up pages, since his books were already increadibly large.

My sister says similar things to me when I take 5 minutes to describe a room when we play, down to the depictions and color of the murals and engravings, and then I add "... and you also see two beholders floating in the middle, beside that pillar I described earlier". But I do it because I love telling stories and want to share my fantasy.

[alhoon]

Favorite quotes:

"True pain, agony that he could feel in every vein in his body, right down to the near invisible ones in is fingers. I will show you the weave someday. " -Semirhage, to the Aes Sedai that try to interogate her.

"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage, thinking.

[alhoon]

I can't help but feel a bit of melancholy reading this book. As you said Gonzoron, some parts seem very "Jordanish" to the point that sometimes I forget there's another person co-writing.

Why the melancholy? All the Jordanish parts I've read and identified as such are the very important ones. It was like Jordan was hastily writting notes from the less important chapters and concentrating mostly on the very important parts. A dying man wanting to make sure the parts he loved most of the story would be told by him.

In the whole book there's no fear of death. The characters don't fear to die. They don't regret their lives as they ride to uncertainity. If I didn't know, I couldn't tell that Jordan was striken with a deadly affliction when writting/making notes of these parts.
Yet, his interviews and his preference to concentrate on the important parts shows clearly that while he was optimistic ("I'll live 20 more years") he wasn't dismissing or avoiding to consider that he could die before finishing the story.
As he has said to someone in his blog, he was worried too that he may not live to finish the series. That's why he was telling the story to his wife and cousin and was making notes as a madman.
He was racing death, he knew it and he accepted it. Not unlike Rand.


EDIT: Well, a part of the story is quite moving. It didn't make me weep, mind you, but it gives off a feeling of... I don't know. It certainly leaves a lingering sadness.

Also, it's quite evident that the order of the chapters is somewhat convulted. I've read things in Rand's part of the story about Mat's part of the story... only that Mat's part of the story haven't progress nearly as far.

[alhoon]

Reading the first books again. The first time I re-read them. Finished new spring and I'm 1/4 through book 1.
Well, Jordan's and Brandon's righting style are quite similar, although Jordan is somewhat more descriptive. Truth be told, I prefer Brandon's style. Jordan is propably better storymaker than Brandon, but Brandon is better storyteller. The books would have benefit if Brandon was ghostwritting them from the beginning.

Anyway, I thought Moraine was too forward for an Aes Sedai in New spring and I attributed that to age . I remember her being mysterius and secretive in the first books. Well, after reading the whole thing and returning to book 1, she seems shockingly overspoken. Sure she doesn't blab around to the three village boys that she thinks one of them is actually going to fight the Dark One and save/break the world but she tells a load of info that would make other Aes Sedai flinch. "Aes Sedai are like normal women except the power that sets us appart, some are brave, some are cowards..." To a would-be-Novice?!? That alone would have earned her penace from Egwene. Birching from Elaida.

Still, it's refreshing noticing things here and there in the first book and the prequel that go weeeell into the books. It gives a sense of continuity.
"Happenstance" (Ta'Varen effects) that I though were oversights by Jordan, like how they all "happened" to be about and ready to leave, including Thom Merilin. The very first bubles of evil. Moraine saying to Egwene that she may one day become Amyrlin seat. Moraine explaining that Aes Sedai are getting fewer (actually something that's taboo to speak of within Aes Sedai themselves). Rand's dream of Dragonmount and a voice tempting him to join the shadow (propably Ishamael's).
I don't know if Jordan planned so far ahead or he constantly kept reading his books and expanding on them.

EDIT: "I do not think all the Forsaken together could move a thousand Trollocs." (Moraine talking with Lan about how about 1000 trollocs were suddenly on their heels in book 1)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Anyway, I thought Moraine was too forward for an Aes Sedai in New spring and I attributed that to age . I remember her being mysterius and secretive in the first books. Well, after reading the whole thing and returning to book 1, she seems shockingly overspoken.

Yeah, I found New Spring jarring too, but mainly because Moiraine and Siuan were so young in the first place. I don't know if I missed some stuff in the early books, but from reading the main series, I always imagined that those two were much older. Maybe not old for an Aes Sedai, like Cadsuane, but not total n00bs. I got the impression that getting to be Amyrlin usually required a few centuries of working up the ranks (Egwene being a special case). And I also got the feeling that the Blue Ajah in general, and Moiraine in particular had been chasing clues and prophecies of the Dragon Reborn for centuries too, not since just before Rand was born! So it may not have contradicted any facts from the main series, but New Spring sure put a different spin on it than I really wanted.

[Galeros]

The books would have benefit if Brandon was ghostwritting them from the beginning.

I agree with this completely.